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Am I the body?

Heyo

Veteran Member
If everything I know or see is the result of neurological chemicals and electrical activity then I live in a simulation.
Who or what is that "I" you are talking about now?
The outer layers of me that you might call real are there to interpret and take actions as the "simulated me" desires. I don't have direct access to light but when I step into the sun I can feel the sensation and simulate it. It's easy though to slip into the idea that the simulation is reality. Modern headsets like the Oculus 3 are making it easier though to see how quickly your brain slips into new realities.
But the Oculus doesn't change the chemicals or electrical activity, it doesn't even change or replace your sensitive organs. (And it is only immersive when you suspend your disbelieve.)
Some psychedelics can have similar perspective-bending revelations that kind of let the curtain slip on what's going on but I have found meditation to be very effective.
Yes, psychedelics also only work as long as you suspend your disbelieve.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
I Sing the Body Electric

by Walt Whitman

1
I sing the body electric,
The armies of those I love engirth me and I engirth them,
They will not let me off till I go with them, respond to them,
And discorrupt them, and charge them full with the charge of the soul.

Was it doubted that those who corrupt their own bodies conceal themselves?
And if those who defile the living are as bad as they who defile the dead?
And if the body does not do fully as much as the soul?
And if the body were not the soul, what is the soul?

2
The love of the body of man or woman balks account, the body itself balks account,
That of the male is perfect, and that of the female is perfect.

The expression of the face balks account,
But the expression of a well-made man appears not only in his face,
It is in his limbs and joints also, it is curiously in the joints of his hips and wrists,
It is in his walk, the carriage of his neck, the flex of his waist and knees, dress does not hide him,
The strong sweet quality he has strikes through the cotton and broadcloth,
To see him pass conveys as much as the best poem, perhaps more,
You linger to see his back, and the back of his neck and shoulder-side.

The sprawl and fulness of babes, the bosoms and heads of women, the folds of their dress, their style as we pass in the street, the contour of their shape downwards,
The swimmer naked in the swimming-bath, seen as he swims through the transparent green-shine, or lies with his face up and rolls silently to and fro in the heave of the water,
The bending forward and backward of rowers in row-boats, the horseman in his saddle,
Girls, mothers, house-keepers, in all their performances,
The group of laborers seated at noon-time with their open dinner-kettles, and their wives waiting,
The female soothing a child, the farmer’s daughter in the garden or cow-yard,
The young fellow hoeing corn, the sleigh-driver driving his six horses through the crowd,
The wrestle of wrestlers, two apprentice-boys, quite grown, lusty, good-natured, native-born, out on the vacant lot at sun-down after work,
The coats and caps thrown down, the embrace of love and resistance,
The upper-hold and under-hold, the hair rumpled over and blinding the eyes;
The march of firemen in their own costumes, the play of masculine muscle through clean-setting trowsers and waist-straps,
The slow return from the fire, the pause when the bell strikes suddenly again, and the listening on the alert,
The natural, perfect, varied attitudes, the bent head, the curv’d neck and the counting;
Such-like I love—I loosen myself, pass freely, am at the mother’s breast with the little child,
Swim with the swimmers, wrestle with wrestlers, march in line with the firemen, and pause, listen, count.

3
I knew a man, a common farmer, the father of five sons,
And in them the fathers of sons, and in them the fathers of sons.

This man was of wonderful vigor, calmness, beauty of person,
The shape of his head, the pale yellow and white of his hair and beard, the immeasurable meaning of his black eyes, the richness and breadth of his manners,
These I used to go and visit him to see, he was wise also,
He was six feet tall, he was over eighty years old, his sons were massive, clean, bearded, tan-faced, handsome,
They and his daughters loved him, all who saw him loved him,
They did not love him by allowance, they loved him with personal love,
He drank water only, the blood show’d like scarlet through the clear-brown skin of his face,
He was a frequent gunner and fisher, he sail’d his boat himself, he had a fine one presented to him by a ship-joiner, he had fowling-pieces presented to him by men that loved him,
When he went with his five sons and many grand-sons to hunt or fish, you would pick him out as the most beautiful and vigorous of the gang,
You would wish long and long to be with him, you would wish to sit by him in the boat that you and he might touch each other.

4
I have perceiv’d that to be with those I like is enough,
To stop in company with the rest at evening is enough,
To be surrounded by beautiful, curious, breathing, laughing flesh is enough,
To pass among them or touch any one, or rest my arm ever so lightly round his or her neck for a moment, what is this then?
I do not ask any more delight, I swim in it as in a sea.

There is something in staying close to men and women and looking on them, and in the contact and odor of them, that pleases the soul well,
All things please the soul, but these please the soul well.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
5
This is the female form,
A divine nimbus exhales from it from head to foot,
It attracts with fierce undeniable attraction,
I am drawn by its breath as if I were no more than a helpless vapor, all falls aside but myself and it,
Books, art, religion, time, the visible and solid earth, and what was expected of heaven or fear’d of hell, are now consumed,
Mad filaments, ungovernable shoots play out of it, the response likewise ungovernable,
Hair, bosom, hips, bend of legs, negligent falling hands all diffused, mine too diffused,
Ebb stung by the flow and flow stung by the ebb, love-flesh swelling and deliciously aching,
Limitless limpid jets of love hot and enormous, quivering jelly of love, white-blow and delirious juice,
Bridegroom night of love working surely and softly into the prostrate dawn,
Undulating into the willing and yielding day,
Lost in the cleave of the clasping and sweet-flesh’d day.

This the nucleus—after the child is born of woman, man is born of woman,
This the bath of birth, this the merge of small and large, and the outlet again.

Be not ashamed women, your privilege encloses the rest, and is the exit of the rest,
You are the gates of the body, and you are the gates of the soul.

The female contains all qualities and tempers them,
She is in her place and moves with perfect balance,
She is all things duly veil’d, she is both passive and active,
She is to conceive daughters as well as sons, and sons as well as daughters.

As I see my soul reflected in Nature,
As I see through a mist, One with inexpressible completeness, sanity, beauty,
See the bent head and arms folded over the breast, the Female I see.

6
The male is not less the soul nor more, he too is in his place,
He too is all qualities, he is action and power,
The flush of the known universe is in him,
Scorn becomes him well, and appetite and defiance become him well,
The wildest largest passions, bliss that is utmost, sorrow that is utmost become him well, pride is for him,
The full-spread pride of man is calming and excellent to the soul,
Knowledge becomes him, he likes it always, he brings every thing to the test of himself,
Whatever the survey, whatever the sea and the sail he strikes soundings at last only here,
(Where else does he strike soundings except here?)

The man’s body is sacred and the woman’s body is sacred,
No matter who it is, it is sacred—is it the meanest one in the laborers’ gang?
Is it one of the dull-faced immigrants just landed on the wharf?
Each belongs here or anywhere just as much as the well-off, just as much as you,
Each has his or her place in the procession.

(All is a procession,
The universe is a procession with measured and perfect motion.)

Do you know so much yourself that you call the meanest ignorant?
Do you suppose you have a right to a good sight, and he or she has no right to a sight?
Do you think matter has cohered together from its diffuse float, and the soil is on the surface, and water runs and vegetation sprouts,
For you only, and not for him and her?

7
A man’s body at auction,
(For before the war I often go to the slave-mart and watch the sale,)
I help the auctioneer, the sloven does not half know his business.

Gentlemen look on this wonder,
Whatever the bids of the bidders they cannot be high enough for it,
For it the globe lay preparing quintillions of years without one animal or plant,
For it the revolving cycles truly and steadily roll’d.

In this head the all-baffling brain,
In it and below it the makings of heroes.

Examine these limbs, red, black, or white, they are cunning in tendon and nerve,
They shall be stript that you may see them.

Exquisite senses, life-lit eyes, pluck, volition,
Flakes of breast-muscle, pliant backbone and neck, flesh not flabby, good-sized arms and legs,
And wonders within there yet.

Within there runs blood,
The same old blood! the same red-running blood!
There swells and jets a heart, there all passions, desires, reachings, aspirations,
(Do you think they are not there because they are not express’d in parlors and lecture-rooms?)

This is not only one man, this the father of those who shall be fathers in their turns,
In him the start of populous states and rich republics,
Of him countless immortal lives with countless embodiments and enjoyments.

How do you know who shall come from the offspring of his offspring through the centuries?
(Who might you find you have come from yourself, if you could trace back through the centuries?)

8
A woman’s body at auction,
She too is not only herself, she is the teeming mother of mothers,
She is the bearer of them that shall grow and be mates to the mothers.

Have you ever loved the body of a woman?
Have you ever loved the body of a man?
Do you not see that these are exactly the same to all in all nations and times all over the earth?

If any thing is sacred the human body is sacred,
And the glory and sweet of a man is the token of manhood untainted,
And in man or woman a clean, strong, firm-fibred body, is more beautiful than the most beautiful face.

Have you seen the fool that corrupted his own live body? or the fool that corrupted her own live body?
For they do not conceal themselves, and cannot conceal themselves.

9
O my body! I dare not desert the likes of you in other men and women, nor the likes of the parts of you,
I believe the likes of you are to stand or fall with the likes of the soul, (and that they are the soul,)
I believe the likes of you shall stand or fall with my poems, and that they are my poems,
Man’s, woman’s, child’s, youth’s, wife’s, husband’s, mother’s, father’s, young man’s, young woman’s poems,
Head, neck, hair, ears, drop and tympan of the ears,
Eyes, eye-fringes, iris of the eye, eyebrows, and the waking or sleeping of the lids,
Mouth, tongue, lips, teeth, roof of the mouth, jaws, and the jaw-hinges,
Nose, nostrils of the nose, and the partition,
Cheeks, temples, forehead, chin, throat, back of the neck, neck-slue,
Strong shoulders, manly beard, scapula, hind-shoulders, and the ample side-round of the chest,
Upper-arm, armpit, elbow-socket, lower-arm, arm-sinews, arm-bones,
Wrist and wrist-joints, hand, palm, knuckles, thumb, forefinger, finger-joints, finger-nails,
Broad breast-front, curling hair of the breast, breast-bone, breast-side,
Ribs, belly, backbone, joints of the backbone,
Hips, hip-sockets, hip-strength, inward and outward round, man-balls, man-root,
Strong set of thighs, well carrying the trunk above,
Leg fibres, knee, knee-pan, upper-leg, under-leg,
Ankles, instep, foot-ball, toes, toe-joints, the heel;
All attitudes, all the shapeliness, all the belongings of my or your body or of any one’s body, male or female,
The lung-sponges, the stomach-sac, the bowels sweet and clean,
The brain in its folds inside the skull-frame,
Sympathies, heart-valves, palate-valves, sexuality, maternity,
Womanhood, and all that is a woman, and the man that comes from woman,
The womb, the teats, nipples, breast-milk, tears, laughter, weeping, love-looks, love-perturbations and risings,
The voice, articulation, language, whispering, shouting aloud,
Food, drink, pulse, digestion, sweat, sleep, walking, swimming,
Poise on the hips, leaping, reclining, embracing, arm-curving and tightening,
The continual changes of the flex of the mouth, and around the eyes,
The skin, the sunburnt shade, freckles, hair,
The curious sympathy one feels when feeling with the hand the naked meat of the body,
The circling rivers the breath, and breathing it in and out,
The beauty of the waist, and thence of the hips, and thence downward toward the knees,
The thin red jellies within you or within me, the bones and the marrow in the bones,
The exquisite realization of health;
O I say these are not the parts and poems of the body only, but of the soul,
O I say now these are the soul!
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Am "I" the mortal body that people recognize as "me". Or am "I" instead possessing a sack of flesh and bone, which is separate from "me" ?

If you never had an out of body experience(s), then perhaps this question seems silly. But even if you have not had out of body experiences, I reckon you can wrap your head around the question anyways... you guys are smart.

I have had out of body experiences over the years. Used to chase them. Gonna pick up the chase again one day, but I've taken a couple years off to recover presently.

My point is, I know (imo) that I am not the body. Do I have physicality truly, or is it an illusion? I am not sure, but I do know that I (and others) have the capacity to overcome and exceed our physical nature and still be "I".

What am "I"? I suspect many have intuitively felt or experienced that they are not the body, hence the prevalence of a belief in a "soul" in most religions.

Well... what say you? What are you? What defines "you" and "me" as "you" and "me"?
You may enjoy this >article< after all your OOBs.

Don't read it if you enjoy the mystery instead and would hate to hear the research.
 
Who or what is that "I" you are talking about now?

But the Oculus doesn't change the chemicals or electrical activity, it doesn't even change or replace your sensitive organs. (And it is only immersive when you suspend your disbelieve.)

Yes, psychedelics also only work as long as you suspend your disbelieve.
Hi Heyo,

I love this response. Who is the I?

When you suspend your disbelief. (Interesting)

Nice to meet you. What I was talking about with the oculus is this odd feeling where you inhabit other planes. It could be as silly as Beat Saber or Gorilla tag or way more immersive. It's a great experience IMHO. (If you don't get motion sick)

The "I" is probably a necessary illusion and just an emergent product of a creature with a giant brain compared to others. When you use devices like the Oculus you are correct that it can't change the chemicals or electric activity directly but those chemicals and electric activity are all that is available for the "I" to interpret. If your eyes and ears don't work you still have an "I" but it probably doesn't have a good understanding of those senses or how to simulate them. (When we were kids we would often wonder is the red I see the same red you see? etc)

I don't have personal experience but I don't know that psychedelics give you much of an option in terms of what you experience.

I think most of the time we are just responding to the scene our brains are building in our head based on our past experiences. Our brain can't hear or see directly and it relies on the translated signals of other organs and is probably overly concerned with all kinds of crazy goals we have long since outgrown over the past 1000 years or so. (Delegation can be problematic but perhaps necessary)

I hope all is well.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Nice to meet you. What I was talking about with the oculus is this odd feeling where you inhabit other planes. It could be as silly as Beat Saber or Gorilla tag or way more immersive. It's a great experience IMHO. (If you don't get motion sick)
Never had the chance to try an Oculus or other VR kit.
The "I" is probably a necessary illusion and just an emergent product of a creature with a giant brain compared to others. When you use devices like the Oculus you are correct that it can't change the chemicals or electric activity directly but those chemicals and electric activity are all that is available for the "I" to interpret. If your eyes and ears don't work you still have an "I" but it probably doesn't have a good understanding of those senses or how to simulate them. (When we were kids we would often wonder is the red I see the same red you see? etc)
As I see it, the "I" (mind, consciousness) is the software running on the brain (hardware). There is no such thing as a disembodied mind. You can, theoretically, separate the software from the hardware and run it on a different hardware ("uploading"), but you can't have a working mind without some hardware.
Now, if you take a computer program and run it on a different computer, the behaviour will subtlety change. The same goes for a mind.
So, ultimately, the behaviour of a person can only be fully explained when you treat the hardware and software as a unit. Thus, the "I" is more conclusively described as the unit of body, brain and mind.

This opinion is mostly influenced by "The Mind's I".
I don't have personal experience but I don't know that psychedelics give you much of an option in terms of what you experience.
Maybe I'm a mutant, but I have this voice in the back of my head that will tell me that what I see isn't real when I'm intoxicated or otherwise in an alternative state (meditation, hypnosis).
 

chinu

chinu
My point is, I know (imo) that I am not the body. Do I have physicality truly, or is it an illusion? I am not sure, but I do know that I (and others) have the capacity to overcome and exceed our physical nature and still be "I".
"Rest in peace" is the term/verse which is very oftenly used when someone meets a death on this earth and in-general people believe that there's no any rebirth after this death. Contrary to this - death of the body isn't a complete death which I have experienced through a meditation practice and came onto the conclusion that a new body is acquired over and again each time until one "Rest in peace", or "Merge into God"

In true terms "Rest in peace" is equal to "Rest in God" like a drop merging into the sea, which is the final death.

IN A NUT SHELL: A certain experience through a meditation-practice is the foundation if someone truly wants to know about God. Or, in some rare cases people acquires the same experience which is the result of near-death-experience happened due to some serious-illness, or an accident in life which becomes a blessing thereafter.

No we are NOT the body :)
 
Never had the chance to try an Oculus or other VR kit.

As I see it, the "I" (mind, consciousness) is the software running on the brain (hardware). There is no such thing as a disembodied mind. You can, theoretically, separate the software from the hardware and run it on a different hardware ("uploading"), but you can't have a working mind without some hardware.
Now, if you take a computer program and run it on a different computer, the behaviour will subtlety change. The same goes for a mind.
So, ultimately, the behaviour of a person can only be fully explained when you treat the hardware and software as a unit. Thus, the "I" is more conclusively described as the unit of body, brain and mind.

This opinion is mostly influenced by "The Mind's I".

Maybe I'm a mutant, but I have this voice in the back of my head that will tell me that what I see isn't real when I'm intoxicated or otherwise in an alternative state (meditation, hypnosis).
Hey Heyo,

I'm almost positive I responded to you but maybe I clicked close browser or something. (I didn't say anything smart I just remember giggling at Hey Heyo)

I don't know if we disagree and if we do it might be super nuanced. Software + hardware = you, what if software changed in your hardware or the opposite? (Sense 8 on Netflix, one of my favorite series on that platform I might cancel)

I am like 63% convinced that consciousness is a necessary illusion as a byproduct of living creatures adapting to changing environments. We convince ourselves all the time that we know exactly what something will be like and then do it in our current form which violates the memory we stored and shocks us occasionally. (Most of the time our brain is good at predicting everything)

I mean I can't argue the hardware matters, it does. It is kind of like the training data for the "I" that I might be talking about. If you have never experienced the chemical and neurological responses of having an arm or a tentacle throwing a boomerang then how could you simulate it? However, software matters too, and maybe some software is not compatible with some hardware and you might be on to something there.

I hope all is well!
 
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