Altruism

[Rex]

Altruism- Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.



In a world full of ego and self promotion can we ever do an altruistic gesture?


Even if we get nothing from what we do we can still have personal satisfaction.


What do you think?

 

[Engyo]

Buddhism, especially the Mahayana tradition, is based in altruism. There is a hook, of course. By doing things for others, especially selflessly, one accumulates good, or positive, karma for ones self.

The most selfless things I have done have afforded me the most satisfying feelings I can recall. I have never understood why this is not a more powerful force in our world than it is.

There is one Buddhist organization in Japan which runs a soup kitchen. They purposely keep their involvement in this secret, so as not to deter anyone from any other religious organization from volunteering their time at the kitchen. The welfare of those needing the service is of more importance than the PR standpoint of the organization.

 

[Alaric]

The most selfless things I have done have afforded me the most satisfying feelings I can recall. I have never understood why this is not a more powerful force in our world than it is.

I've been thinking that the problem might be in the concern for being exploited and laughed at, which might be part of the idea these days (which might be quite accurate) that actively pursuing your own best interests without harming others is what does the most good. There is a conception of some altruists, especially the less-than-well-off, that they are doing in for the pity value - people will be more accepting of their situation, so they don't feel the need to exert themselves and make something of their lives.

Generally, I don't think an act is good if it helps someone else to your own detriment; that just passes the guilt around. If you give aid to the needy, its not just that the needy are helped; it also helps society in general, and consequently, yourself. However, just pursuing your own interests is not enough in my opinion; it might be enough in a more just society, but you need to apply compassion and understanding to the situations of people you are confronted with. Otherwise comforting, or just spending time with, people on their deathbed would be considered a waste of time, when obviously it isn't. This sort of thing can be justified by saying that your actions reflect the kind of society and person-to-person relationships that you want to make more common.

 

[Truthseeker5]

Buddhism, especially the Mahayana tradition, is based in altruism. There

is a hook, of course. By doing things for others, especially selflessly, one accumulates good, or positive, karma for ones self.

The most selfless things I have done have afforded me the most satisfying feelings I can recall. I have never understood why this is not a more powerful force in our world than it is.

There is one Buddhist organization in Japan which runs a soup kitchen. They purposely keep their involvement in this secret, so as not to deter anyone from any other religious organization from volunteering their time at the kitchen. The welfare of those needing the service is of more importance than the PR standpoint of the organization.

Well I just couldn't resist replying to this:

Lets start with this:

The most selfless things I have done have afforded me the most satisfying feelings I can recall

I laughed out loud when I read this why ? Can't you see this isn't alturistic at all it's egoistic! You said yourself that your so called selfless act gave you satisfying feelings. So your motivation for the act was to feel good about yourself was it not ? If it didn't make you feel good yopu wouldn't have done it would you ?

Check it out. I met a charity worker on the tube the other day we got talking and I asked him why he did what he did. He said "Because it doesn't make me feel so guilty." In this case it is clear the real motivation behind his act of "giving" is the relief of guilt. I also know a social worker who when I asked why she did it, she told me: "Well it makes me feel proud of myself, it makes feel like I have done something good" Again I challenge you all: what is the real motivation behind these so called acts of giving ?

All these people Mother Theresa, The Angel of Mostar or whatever her name is and anybody like these people are not alturistic at all. They Kid themselves and decieve the nations and want people to believe that they are saints but they are not. They are egoistic to the core. Through their own actions they consider themselves righteous, saintly and good. The truth is they are after self-glorification, they are self righteous and try to make everbody believe that they are such wonderful people. Oh how man wishes to attain praise in the eyes of others! "WHAT AN OUTRAGEOUS THING TO COME OUT WITH!!!!" I hear you say. Well look don't take my word for it, ask a charity worker what motivates them to do what they do and you will almost immediately hear the word I. I,I,I,I,I,I,I,. Look at what motivates Engyo to act!

In our present state we have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what alturism is. Every act we make is dictated only by an egoistic calculation. I.E. Is it worth dragging myself out of bed at 4am to watch the boxing on HBO or not ? Is it worth saving up a lot of money to go on an expensive holiday ? Is it worth dragging myself to the toilet or not ? Is it worth invading another country or not ? Every little thing we do is motivated by a desire to recieve for ourselves nothing more. It is our only motivating force.

Let me give you another classic example:

I will do so called good deeds to get into = A totally egoistic calculation. I.E. I calculate that by doing these acts I will get into heaven. Let me ask the people who beleive that charity is good this. If you didn't think that giving to charity would get you into heaven would you still do it ? I lookforward to a truthful response!

Alturism is totally opposite to our nature.

 

[Runt]

Hmm... personally, I think altruism is an ideal... one that an individual can occassionally touch briefly, but not something that is inherent in our nature, and not something that ANYONE can "attain". Touch, yes, but not attain. We are too "egotistical" (as Truthseeker puts it) to attain altruism, which, for us, would require one of two things: not thinking as we act or caring ONLY for the benefit of our actions as they relate to another person, and not thinking about the benefit of our action on ourself. Can we do this occassionally? Yes. Can we do it all the time? No.

All these people Mother Theresa, The Angel of Mostar or whatever her name is and anybody like these people are not alturistic at all. They Kid themselves and decieve the nations and want people to believe that they are saints but they are not. They are egoistic to the core. Through their own actions they consider themselves righteous, saintly and good.

I do not think that these people are as "evil" and self serving as you paint them to be. I do not think the motivation behind EVERY act of charity is the desire to serve ourselves... I believe Mother Theresa and others are flawed because they are "human" and therefore prone to those annoying moments of imperfection like the rest of us, but I also feel that they HAVE reached altrusim sometimes... that most of us have.

Altrusim: selfless concern for the welfare of others

Feeling good for our selfless actions after acting is not selfless... but the action still was.

To explain: Altruism comes first... a child rushes into the street and all you think about is saving the child, NOT about yourself at all, not about whether or not it is "worth" it. (Ego is suspended... you lose sense of your "self" and all is action--you rush forward to knock that child out of harm's way without even considering what will happen to you or whether it is worth it to you.) Perhaps you succeed... perhaps you don't. But that was altruism...

THEN, later, people begin to congradulate you. "That was really kind/heroic/selfless of you!" Their words feed your ego. You think "Gee, it was, wasn't it?" You feel good about what you did. You feel that you are a good person.

Does this cancel out the altruism of the original action? No, it just marks the boundary of where the selflessness ended and the "ego" began!

If you didn't think that giving to charity would get you into heaven would you still do it ? I lookforward to a truthful response!

Yes. I have no concept of "heaven" (or rather, no concept of some people going there and others NOT going there), and I STILL give to charity. Why? Because, despite the fact that it makes me feel good about myself (damn that Ego!), those clothes/books/foods/ are STILL needed by the poor, and it would be REALLY selfish of me NOT to give them when I don't need them!

Truthseeker, a question. Your condemnation of humanity's various flaws seems REALLY harsh, so much so that I begin to wonder if you include yourself in this flawed race that fills you with so much disgust... Do you find these same faults in yourself and feel such disgust for your own flawed nature, or do you believe that your religion puts you above the rest of us "mere", flawed humans? Because that is the way you are coming off...

 

[Engyo]

Truthseeker -

May I ask what motivates you to do whatever it is that you do? Do you reject the idea of "doing for others" altogether, or how do you view this question? Do you personally make any efforts to benefit anyone besides yourself, and why? I would like to hear your personal positions on these topics.

 

[Truthseeker5]

Truthseeker, a question. Your condemnation of humanity's various flaws seems REALLY harsh, so much so that I begin to wonder if you include yourself in this flawed race that fills you with so much disgust... Do you find these same faults in yourself and feel such disgust for your own flawed nature, or do you believe that your religion puts you above the rest of us "mere", flawed humans? Because that is the way you are coming off...

Hi Runt,

The reason it sounds harsh is it the truth - the fact of the matter is that humanitys wild unreasonable nature is leading us into a pit. Do I find the same faults in myself ? Of course I do, like you wouldn't believe. I realise that this desire in myself is truly evil and thats why I pray to be rid of it. The trouble I can't correct myself without divine intervention. No man born can do this. We just can't change our basic nature by ourselves.

Do I consider myself some sort of divine being above the rest of humanity ? Of course not we are all part of the same soul structure.

 

[Truthseeker5]

May I ask what motivates you to do whatever it is that you do? Do you reject the idea of "doing for others" altogether, or how do you view this question? Do you personally make any efforts to benefit anyone besides yourself, and why? I would like to hear your personal positions on these topics.

What motivates me to do what I do ? Simple. I spread the wisdom of Kabbalah becuase we must make it known to everyone. Why do I spread Kabbalah ?So that we can correct our desire to recieve in order to recieve for ourselves. Why do I want to do this ? Because by freeing ourselves of this desire to recieve will improve the worlds situation dramatically.

I reject the idea of giving money to charity ect, ect becuase it is wrongly assumed that this is a "good" act. It isn't. Will charity help the world ? No. If you are going to kill a weed you must get to the root of it and the root cause of humanitys problems stems from their desire to recieve in order recieve - nothing more!

Do I make any attempts to benefit anyone other than myself ? And why ?Well I am making my contribution to speeding up the process of correction by studying and circulating Kabbalah. There is nothing I can do alturistically in my present state because as I have said all of my actions are dictated only by egoism. But helping to speed up the process of correcting our desire to recieve is the best thing I can do for all of mankind. Eventually people on earth will be living according to the rule of loving thy neighbour as thyself. Why ? it will be in their interests to.

If you want to know more about Kabbalah I will answer your questions to the best of my ability. (Anything I can't I will refer to my Rav.) Check out our site as well www.kabbalah.info

 

[Truthseeker5]

To explain: Altruism comes first... a child rushes into the street and all you think about is saving the child, NOT about yourself at all, not about whether or not it is "worth" it. (Ego is suspended... you lose sense of your "self" and all is action--you rush forward to knock that child out of harm's way without even considering what will happen to you or whether it is worth it to you.) Perhaps you succeed... perhaps you don't. But that was altruism...

THEN, later, people begin to congradulate you. "That was really kind/heroic/selfless of you!" Their words feed your ego. You think "Gee, it was, wasn't it?" You feel good about what you did. You feel that you are a good person.

Can I suggest that this one moment of glory may have meant more to that person in the first place than their own life.

 

[Lightkeeper]

What about people who risk their lives, when they see someone in danger. They act without thinking. This is supposedly because we are all connected and in a dangerous situation we do not think "other." My happiest moments is when I have done something for someone else.

I wrote my paper last night on the Divine Feminine. One recurring theme in my reading on the subject was the repressed feminine causes lack of selflessness. The authors' all felt that if the Divine Feminine emerged back into our religion and culture, there would be more world peace and nurturing, and caring for our fellow citizens.

 

[Truthseeker5]

What about people who risk their lives, when they see someone in danger. They act without thinking.

These people make a calculation. The glory of doing this heroic act is often worth more than their lives. These people are willing to risk there lives for the sake of glory.

 

[Master Vigil]

Truth seeker, First of all, how dare you think that you sitting there and reading and learning about kaballah is helping the world. its not helping me, infact, it is annoying me that you do that instead of help charities. Your analagy of the plant and its roots. have you ever heard of trimming a tree or plant to make it healthier and save it?? trimming it is like the charities. and who gives a **** if it is wrongly assumed as being "good." What is your definition of good. So i guess the people getting that money don't want it because it was given to them by a selfish person. Oh please, get off your high horse and join us here in reality. And I seriously doubt you are worthy enough to talk about mother theresa the way you do. Obviously this shows me that are not able to be altruistic in any way, and the only thing you can do, is try to get rid of the idea, so that you and your kaballah religion can rise above all else.

 

[Rex]

Truth seeker, First of all, how dare you think that you sitting there and reading and learning about kaballah is helping the world. its not helping me, infact, it is annoying me that you do that instead of help charities. Your analagy of the plant and its roots. have you ever heard of trimming a tree or plant to make it healthier and save it?? trimming it is like the charities. and who gives a **** if it is wrongly assumed as being "good." What is your definition of good. So i guess the people getting that money don't want it because it was given to them by a selfish person. Oh please, get off your high horse and join us here in reality. And I seriously doubt you are worthy enough to talk about mother theresa the way you do. Obviously this shows me that are not able to be altruistic in any way, and the only thing you can do, is try to get rid of the idea, so that you and your kaballah religion can rise above all else.

Master,

everyone is entitled to their own opinion of things. This why we have a Debate Forum

 

[Truthseeker5]

Truth seeker, First of all, how dare you think that you sitting there and reading and learning about kaballah is helping the world. its not helping me, infact, it is annoying me that you do that instead of help charities. Your analagy of the plant and its roots. have you ever heard of trimming a tree or plant to make it healthier and save it?? trimming it is like the charities. and who gives a **** if it is wrongly assumed as being "good." What is your definition of good. So i guess the people getting that money don't want it because it was given to them by a selfish person. Oh please, get off your high horse and join us here in reality. And I seriously doubt you are worthy enough to talk about mother theresa the way you do. Obviously this shows me that are not able to be altruistic in any way, and the only thing you can do, is try to get rid of the idea, so that you and your kaballah religion can rise above all else.

Let me pick up on a few points - "its not helping me" - and your supposed to be alturistic right ?

Did Mother Theresa change the world ? - Well look about you homeboy and tell me if she eradicated war, poverty and suffering ?

Master Vigil tell me this if you were given the chance what would you do comfort people in their misery or try and locate the cause of it ?

 

[Runt]

You're right Truthseeker... we should all acknowledge our true evil, selfish nature and stop trying to make our world a better place. Don't strive to alleviate war, crime, hunger, poverty, and suffering! Our efforts do nothing to help at all.

*rolls eyes* An analogy: What kind of neighborhood would you rather live in? One where each and every one of your neighbors break into one another's homes, kidnaps each other's children, rapes each other's girlfriend, kills each other's dogs......or a neighborhood where perhaps ONE person does these things, but other than that all is well? If we don't TRY to alleviate suffering, crime, poverty, etc., NOTHING will change. If we try, these things will lessen, though they will not be eradicated.

 

[Master Vigil]

First off, I never claimed to be altruistic. And second, it wasn't mother theresa's goal to eradicate war, poverty and suffering? And yes I beleive she did change the world. See, the world is like a sand box, if you remove one grain of sand, the whole sandbox has changed. And I believe that through mother theresa and alot of other people who care about the rest of the world, have atleast changed the world, by changing few.

I believe we should recognize our evils and selfish natures too, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make our world a better place. Yeah, if we don't try, nothing will change. And I understand your idea of studying and spreading the idea of kabbalism because many taoists have sort of the same idea. But that doesn't discourage them from helping those who need it. Sometimes you need to get out there and help for it to make even the slightest difference.

And about your question... I would do both. I would try to locate the cause of it while I was conforting them. And sometimes, we cannot know the cause or root of it all. So comforting is better than nothing. Comforting a friend CAN be better than telling them about a religion.

Let me ask you a question... If your house burnt down and you lost all of your possessions, and you were caught in the fire and the floor collapsed beneath you causing you to break your spine and become paralyzed, would you accept help? Or would you be too concerned with the fact that the people helping you are not being completely altruistic??

And I'm sorry if I sounded a little offended and defensive, I happen to love the work many, including mother theresa, do for others who do indeed need it.

 

[Truthseeker5]

Great post Runt,

we should all acknowledge our true evil, selfish nature and stop trying to make our world a better place.

By aknowledging our true evil, selfish nature we are there in a far better position to change than doing these so called acts which people seem to think are good. Again Runt I challenge you Has charity alleviated poverty ? Has the peace movement eradicated war ? We have had the two massive world wars and still were having them. Human efforts to try and stop these things aren't working are they!

Can't you see that they are not working! Have never worked and will never work!!!!!!

If we are truly interested in eradicating these things then we must address what causes these things in the first place which is the desire to recieve for ourselves and the pursuit of transient pleasure. If we recognize that then we have a springboard for real change. Lasting solutions to world problems and total eradication of mankinds suffering.

Thanks for the post Runt it actually reinforces what I have been saying

 

[Death]

The motivation of an action is utterly irrelevant in comparison to the action itself and it's consequences.

 

[Alaric]

The motivation of an action is utterly irrelevant in comparison to the action itself and it's consequences.

You serious? It's the motivation that determines the amount of respect the person gets, how we reward or punish, etc. Focusing simply on consequences would ignore people's ability to learn or empathize. We don't punish people for killing, we punish people for having anti-social values that result in killing, because everyone else thinks killing is wrong and they have the power.

 

[Death]

You serious? It's the motivation that determines the amount of respect the person gets, how we reward or punish, etc. Focusing simply on consequences would ignore people's ability to learn or empathize. We don't punish people for killing, we punish people for having anti-social values that result in killing, because everyone else thinks killing is wrong and they have the power.

These are good points, however, with respects to altruism, they don't make any difference since they have no bearing on the "good" done.