Agnosticism vs. Atheism

[FerventGodSeeker]

I'm posting this thread in the hopes of beginning a debate or discussion about Agnosticism vs. Atheism. Often, I notice agnostics spending much of their time debating with theists as to whether one can know for certain that there is a God. Truth be told, I don't think I've ever seen an agnostic debate with an atheist as to whether one can know for sure that there is not a God. So, I'm hoping to see such discussion/debate in this thread.
If you are an Atheist (specifically a "strong" atheist who positively asserts that there is no God), why do you believe that there is no God? What arguments can be put forth to positively assert that there is no God?
If you are an Agnostic, why do you reject these arguments, and why do you merely believe that one cannot know whether there is a God or not?

Since I am neither an Atheist, nor an Agnostic, I will try to stay out of this as much as possible.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[Booko]

I'm posting this thread in the hopes of beginning a debate or discussion about Agnosticism vs. Atheism. Often, I notice agnostics spending much of their time debating with theists as to whether one can know for certain that there is a God. Truth be told, I don't think I've ever seen an agnostic debate with an atheist as to whether one can know for sure that there is not a God. So, I'm hoping to see such discussion/debate in this thread.
If you are an Atheist (specifically a "strong" atheist who positively asserts that there is no God), why do you believe that there is no God? What arguments can be put forth to positively assert that there is no God?
If you are an Agnostic, why do you reject these arguments, and why do you merely believe that one cannot know whether there is a God or not?

Since I am neither an Atheist, nor an Agnostic, I will try to stay out of this as much as possible.

FerventGodSeeker

Yeah, well, I'm an agnostic theist, so I don't even know where to start with this one.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Yeah, well, I'm an agnostic theist, so I don't even know where to start with this one.

I've never heard of agnostic theism. What is it, and why do you ascribe to that belief system?

 

[Booko]

I've never heard of agnostic theism. What is it, and why do you ascribe to that belief system?

Agnosticism is just a position that says you can't prove the existence of God.

So there are varieties of agnostics out there. Roughly, you could put them into some categories like the following:

Agnostic atheist: Can't prove empirically God exists, but chooses not to believe in God.

Agnostic 1: Can't prove empiracally God exists, so I take no position on it.

Agnostic 2: Don't really care. Leave me alone.

Agnostic theist: Can't prove empirically God exists, but chooses to believe in God.

That last position would be the one I subscribe to. I've been everything else but "agnostic 1".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Truth be told, I don't think I've ever seen an agnostic debate with an atheist as to whether one can know for sure that there is not a God.

This gets tiresome ...

... agnosticism is an epistemological position, atheism an ontological one. They are not counterposed.

BTW, why aren't you a fervent unicorn seeker or fervent pixie seeker?

 

[Booko]

This gets tiresome ...

... agnosticism is an epistemological position, atheism an ontological one. They are not counterposed.

BTW, why aren't you a fervent unicorn seeker or fervent pixie seeker?

Ah, I see you've endured this discussion many times before also.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

In order to avoid argument or misunderstanding on the definition of terms, let's abide by these basic definitions:
ag·nos·tic
n.

1. 1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
   2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

a·the·ist
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

You may also further specify or define your personal atheism or agnosticism. Booko, for example, has identified a few different types of agnostics. As far as I know, one could also categorize atheists into two categories: weak atheism, which is simply lack of belief in a deity, and strong atheism, which positively asserts that there is no God. If you categorize atheism or agnosticism differently, please explain (although sticking generally to the definitions above atheism and agnosticism would be appreciated for clarity and understanding).
I'm not a fervent unicorn seeker or a fervent pixie seeker because I don't believe that unicorns or pixies are worth seeking. However, I'd like to keep this thread as a discussion/debate of athiesm and agnosticism, not my theism. Thanks.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[Pah]

Beyond reasonable doubt and preponderence of evidence are criteria in law for making judgement. Epistemology has several standards of truth, the greater being a correspondence to reality, coherence, and the newer, identity therory.

Each of these epistemological standards point to a preponderence of evidence that gives the thought that God does not exist.

If the agnostic holds doubt, it is usually a doubting of the evidence for God's existence. And that is only part of the baseline for this Atheist's judgement. The agnostic says we can never prove nor disprove the existence of God. I say that the proof for God is beyond the capacity of reasonable truth. The proof for God requires a leap from rational thought to faith which is also separate from irrational thought.

What goes beyond the argument for or against God is the developing evo-sciences. The study of the origins of morality, the study of language growth from, to us, unintelligent grunt and babble to various national language, the study of where rights originate, cosomological study and, of course, the study of biogenesis. There is theory in these sciences that will undergo the trial that only science can hold. I have no reasonable doubt that science will prevail. I have no doubt that reality as it is shown more and more by science will negate an existence of God.

Should M-theroy prevails, God, if there be one, will be reduced to a creator of strings.

 

[Pah]

In order to avoid argument or misunderstanding on the definition of terms, let's abide by these basic definitions:....

Let those who argue the postition define the terms atheist and agnostic. You have selected, in the opening post, a position of listener

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Let those who argue the postition define the terms atheist and agnostic. You have selected, in the opening post, a position of listener

If you would like to more specifically define the terms for your own arguments or viewpoints, go ahead. I posted those definitions (from www.dictionary.com) in order to set a more universal definition that everyone on the thread can generally abide by, in order to avoid argument or misunderstanding about the definitions of terms. Sorry, I'll try REALLY HARD not to respond, lol. I only responded to this because it had to do with the basic guidelines of the thread's topic, which I initiated. Anywho, have fun!

FerventGodSeeker

 

[BucephalusBB]

Well, this all places me right in the middle.
I am not sure if God exists or not and leave it a bit open. but, with what I consider to be evidences I hang more to the non-theistic side, making me an atheistic agnost.
However, I do think that eventually the outcome, whatever that will be, will be proven. Not with the thoughts and materials we have now though..
So that would make me an atheist

Anyway, the form of debating as you mention: I think this also differs per person a lot. I like to put myself in the opposite team, so many times you will see me talking as if I'm religious. And aloso many times I shall not. This I do with a lot of topics and not only religion, so this is not a religious aspect of mine..

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not a fervent unicorn seeker or a fervent pixie seeker because I don't believe that unicorns or pixies are worth seeking.

I very much doubt it.

 

[retrorich]

... agnosticism is an epistemological position, atheism an ontological one. They are not counterposed.

WOW!!! You sure know a lot of big words, Mister!

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I very much doubt it.

Huh? Again, let's keep this thread on the topics of Atheism and Agnosticism, please. Thanks

FerventGodSeeker

 

[michel]

Well, this all places me right in the middle.
I am not sure if God exists or not and leave it a bit open. but, with what I consider to be evidences I hang more to the non-theistic side, making me an atheistic agnost.
However, I do think that eventually the outcome, whatever that will be, will be proven. Not with the thoughts and materials we have now though..
So that would make me an atheist

Anyway, the form of debating as you mention: I think this also differs per person a lot. I like to put myself in the opposite team, so many times you will see me talking as if I'm religious. And aloso many times I shall not. This I do with a lot of topics and not only religion, so this is not a religious aspect of mine..

I like to put myself in the opposite team, so many times you will see me talking as if I'm religious

I am glad you have said that, because there have nbeen times I have been confused by statememnts made by you.

 

[michel]

Well, this all places me right in the middle.
I am not sure if God exists or not and leave it a bit open. but, with what I consider to be evidences I hang more to the non-theistic side, making me an atheistic agnost.
However, I do think that eventually the outcome, whatever that will be, will be proven. Not with the thoughts and materials we have now though..
So that would make me an atheist

Anyway, the form of debating as you mention: I think this also differs per person a lot. I like to put myself in the opposite team, so many times you will see me talking as if I'm religious. And aloso many times I shall not. This I do with a lot of topics and not only religion, so this is not a religious aspect of mine..

I like to put myself in the opposite team, so many times you will see me talking as if I'm religious

I am glad you have said that, because there have nbeen times I have been confused by statememnts made by you.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Don't everyone jump in at once...

 

[Majikthise]

I'm posting this thread in the hopes of beginning a debate or discussion about Agnosticism vs. Atheism. Often, I notice agnostics spending much of their time debating with theists as to whether one can know for certain that there is a God. Truth be told, I don't think I've ever seen an agnostic debate with an atheist as to whether one can know for sure that there is not a God. So, I'm hoping to see such discussion/debate in this thread.
If you are an Atheist (specifically a "strong" atheist who positively asserts that there is no God), why do you believe that there is no God? What arguments can be put forth to positively assert that there is no God?
If you are an Agnostic, why do you reject these arguments, and why do you merely believe that one cannot know whether there is a God or not?

Since I am neither an Atheist, nor an Agnostic, I will try to stay out of this as much as possible.

FerventGodSeeker

I'll bite.
You're right , you won't see atheists and agnostics arguing points of their beliefs because there is no scripture or dogmatic rhetoric to argue over.
Why do I believe there is no god? Because I have seen no evidence that there is ,and ,if a god being does exsist it would be so far beyond human comprehension as makes no odds , so just go on about your business and don't worry about it.

But one of my biggest peeves is the belief that without god or religion one cannot be a moral ,responsible and kind person. This has been proven wrong time and time again and yet there are still narrow minded individuals who would assert this to be true. So it's not so much god I deny completely, but man's silly claims that he knows anything at all about god.

 

[Yerda]

Truth be told, I don't think I've ever seen an agnostic debate with an atheist as to whether one can know for sure that there is not a God.

Neither have I. Not many atheists I know actually maintain that there is no god. I didn't call myself atheist for several years (when I clearly was) based on the faulty assumption that atheists must dictate that no god exists.

 

[finalfrogo]

I just realized... I'm an agnostic near the edge of theism. Wow. What will I find out about myself tomorrow?!