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Featured Adam and Jesus

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Apr 29, 2022.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    was jesus' spirit that of the original adam before the fall?


    prior to the fall all was paradise, did christ exist before the fall and was jesus the return of that christ consciousness?
     
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  2. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    In my faith... no.
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Christ existed before the fall and before the making of the universe, but not as Adam or the spirit in Adam.
    I don't think that Adam's spirit was swapped for another one after the fall.
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    so you don't believe vs 1 corinthians 15:45?


    or that melchizedek and jesus shared the same spirit? a high priest forever after the avatar order?



     
  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    so how do you understand being made after the order of melchizedek? or

    1 corinthians 15:45






    On this account, O Father, send me; Bearing seals, I shall descend; Through ages whole I'll sweep, All mysteries I'll unravel, And forms of Gods I'll show; And secrets of the saintly path, Styled "Gnosis," I'll impart.
     
    #5 Fool, Apr 29, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  6. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Why not? If God is triune, the Jesus must have existed at all times.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I understand it as speaking of Jesus not being a Levitical priest but being a priest of God Most High still, as Melchizedek was.

    I understand 1Cor 15:45 as being about Jesus being more than a man and when He rose from the dead, while He was still a resurrected man, He also willed the whole universe with His Spirit (Ephesians 4:10),,,,,,,,,,,,He went back to being what He was before becoming a man. Those who are given eternal life at the resurrection will be like Him and our bodies will be transformed into immortal and incorruptible bodies as Jesus body is, and our spirits will be joined still with His Spirit.

    Who is this meant to be about and where does it come from?
     
  8. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    No. Christ's spirit is nicely fermented to a Piney flavor, to invoke a better relationship to the Universe.

    Yes. Christ consciousness is a natural state of being humans tend to forget and need reminders to nail it down.
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    melchizedek wasn't levitical, nor was he even an israelite.

    how do you suppose jesus made the claim that abraham was glad to see his day?

    john 8:56



    we're all more than just human. but the name adam is used and not jesus to make a direct connection to him who fell and drew others down with the fall; so then he who fell would rise and draw all that fell him.

    john 12:32



    the word order means a line of progression.

    here is the strong's definition. it is not only a position as a high priest but a succession of incarnations of said office.

    G5010 - taxis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

    jesus is not the first incarnation of a high priest. so that makes him at least secondary. melchizedek being the first. so this puts melchizedek as equal to jesus and appearing first.
     
  10. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    Sure do... but it just doesn't say that he was Adam reincarnated. I am the first in my family and my son is the second and it is duly noted by the Jr. at the end of his name.
     
  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    but it says abraham was glad to see my day and saw it. how do you explain that abraham literally saw what jesus claimed?

    for abraham to have seen jesus, he would have had to appeared to abraham as another incarnated personality. otherwise, why would jesus have not appeared to other prophets throughout the bible as jesus? why even be born to a woman; if he already existed in said form?

    resurrection literally means to raise again? how can you raise a spirit; when it's eternal? isn't resurrection about raising a carnal/earthly body?
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Melchizadek was still a priest of God Most High.
    In that culture I don't know what that meant, it may have meant that he was a priest for the top God in the pantheon,,,,,,,,,,,,El.

    Abraham was a prophet and would have been given prophetic glimpses of the coming Messiah.

    We are all just human, including Adam, the first human.
    Jesus is the start of a new creation, humans whose spirit are joined to the Spirit of God. Jesus as God's eternal Son makes us into adopted children that way and the step means that we are still human, but with a difference.
    John 12:32 speaks of Jesus crucifixion and drawing all men to Himself through that.



    I don't know how you work incarnation into that. Are you saying Melchizedek came from heaven?
     
  13. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    Good questions...

    There are many ways God can show us of things to come. The Book of the Revelation to John is all about what was to come... through visions (as it could also be through a dream). You don't have to see the actual physical incarnation fort God to show you the future.

    The Word had to be born of a woman because God set the parameters for legal authority on the earth in Gen 1:26. To come any other way, as Jesus said, is to come in illegally. John 10:7-10 and others

    The issue of "death" is our interpretation. The first mention of "death" in scripture is plural in the Hebrew. In some cases it can be translated "separated from the life of God". There are physical resurrections but there are also spiritual resurrections.

    In a spiritual resurrection, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it simply means it is separated from God. Satan is a eternal spirit but eternally separated from God. When a person is "born-again", he is simply resurrected from separation into complete union.

    When Jesus received the sin of mankind he said "Why has you forsaken me" - a separation from God the Father. Spiritually he was separated but when he was resurrected back into full communion he because the "first born among the dead". Col. 1:18 and others.
     
  14. Fool

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    you are not introduced to the concept of the most high god until melchizedek. prior to that, they were simply elohim.


    so there was no coming of the messiah for abraham after his death. abraham saw him. jesus tells you that. jesus doesn't say he had a vision but literally saw him and he abraham. jesus doesn't say that. you're making stuff up.

    john 8:56



    we are not adopted. god creates. god doesn't adopt anything. this is no where in the bible. in fact its antithetical






    incarnation is simply the spirit coming into earthly form. babies are incarnations of spirits coming into the earthly sojourn.
     
  15. Fool

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    what was to come was at hand. it wasn't 2000+ years later and people making up beliefs as hard as they could go

    revelation 1:1 says shortly. 2000+ years isn't short; otherwise your god is a liar because we're not working on some time unspecified to the person being engaged. it would be sanctimonious to tell a human a short time and then take 2000+ years and them barely living to be 50 to make such a egregious statement.
     
  16. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    Who determines what time is? For God a thousand years is as a day.

    Certainly we know that all that John saw hasn't been fulfilled.
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day...." He did not say "Abraham saw me...."
    I presume that Jesus was speaking of the day when Jesus, the Messiah would arrive.
    Reading the various ways John 8:56 is translated you should be able to see the meaning.
    John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad."


    Christians are adopted children of God because we receive the Spirit of adoption from God, the Spirit that witnesses to our spirit that we are children of God.
    Romans 8:15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

    We are born again from above when we receive the Spirit and become new creations. Adoption and creation in the one act.
    See Ephesians 1:5, Gal 4:4-7

    Nobody human has been into heaven except Jesus. He was incarnated.
    My understanding is that all other humans get their spirit from their parents and that it was only Adam into whom God breathed this spirit of life from God directly. Adam was created and we share in that creation.
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    actually it has for some matthew 16:28 they saw the son of man come into his kingdom

    on earth, people generally are dealing with earth time. god time is eternally. man time is usually in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years.

    once you enter into the kingdom, turn inward and come into god's kingdom, time ceases to exist and life becomes eternal.

    you don't understand that do you?


    then understand this
    luke 11:11

    because a thousand years is but a day and a day is but a 1000 years doesn't mean it can't happen NOW and instantaneous vs for some who hold on to their pride and refuse to see the obvious until love takes over.

     
  19. Fool

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    it literally says he saw that day and rejoiced, meaning he saw the messiah in his time, abraham's day; which was the same for melchizedek. abraham sat down with melchizedek after killing a calf and serving it to him.


    jesus trumps paul. you're becoming desperate to claim that the flesh creates spirit.


    the spirit is god's. the spirit is eternal. it doesn't come from humans. your parents gave you the vessel, you call a body. the spirit gave it life


    ecclesiastes 12:7
     
    #19 Fool, May 2, 2022
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="Fool, post: 7668483, member: 59127"]it literally says he saw that day and rejoiced, meaning he saw the messiah in his time, abraham's day; which was the same for melchizedek. abraham sat down with melchizedek after killing a calf and serving it to him.[/QUOTE]

    Whom do you say was Jesus in Abraham's day?
    It is true that Melchizedek is compared favourably with Jesus in the NT and is even called King of Salem in the OT. Salem means "peace" and Jesus is the Prince of Peace (Isa 9:6) and Salem is said to have been Jerusalem. Do you say he was Jesus?
    Personally I think one of the 3 angels that Abraham saw when they were on their way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah was YHWH and so would have been the pre human Jesus.

    [QUOTE="Fool, post: 7668483, member: 59127"] jesus trumps paul. you're becoming desperate to claim that the flesh creates spirit.[/QUOTE]

    I don't see Jesus and Paul disagreeing. Where do you say that happens?

    [QUOTE="Fool, post: 7668483, member: 59127"] the spirit is god's. the spirit is eternal. it doesn't come from humans. your parents gave you the vessel, you call a body. the spirit gave it life

    ecclesiastes 12:7[/QUOTE]

    When we die our spirit goes to God who gave it. That is what Eccles 12:7 says.
    While we are alive we can pass on life into the bodies of our children. Like a lit candle lighting other candles.
     
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