ACLU Wants to Remove Prayer at Naval Academy

[Apex]

So, are you saying that if our coins had the inscription "There is no God", you would have no problem with that?

Not really.

 

[Magic Man]

Same thing could be said about "In God We Trust" on our money. Yet we still have athiests throwing hissy fits over it as if it is somehow forcing them to believe in God. I couldn't care less about what my money said just as long as it bought what I needed.

I'm sure some are worse then others, but it just seems stupid to me to have that on our money. It's like saying "You can be whatever religion you want or none at all...but America believes in God". I'm not going to "throw a hissy fit", or start a campaign, but it seems pretty silly to me.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Not really.

Well that is very open minded of you.

In light of the thread we now have going that deals with the ACLU asking to have the lunch time prayer stopped in the US Naval Academy, what percentage of your fellow Christians would you guess share your opinion about such verbiage?

 

[Starfish]

Would you feel that way, if the majority were for facing Mecca, and forcing prayer six times a day?

If I was in a land where the majority embraced a religion that had that tradition, I would respect their ways. I would hold to my beliefs, but certainly not be affected negatively in any way. Six times a day, would wear on my patience no doubt, but that would be something I would consider before joining the academy. I think this was the logic that has prevailed till now.

 

[Starfish]

You emboldened the wrong word:

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.​

This works for me.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

...Six times a day, would wear on my patience no doubt, but that would be something I would consider before joining the academy.

Do you mean that an atheist, agnostic, or any non Christian should consider the convention of prayer will be held at lunchtime, and if they find it objectionable, they should simply not pursue an education at the Naval Academy?

I think this was the logic that has prevailed till now.

Let's call that a "custom". It may be many things, but "logic" isn't one of them.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Our hand book says that our tax dollars cannot be used to support or deny any specific religions.

You should read that hand book again. Right or wrong, it really doesn't say anything of the sort.

 

[Magic Man]

You should read that hand book again. Right or wrong, it really doesn't say anything of the sort.

Have you not heard of separation of church and state?

 

[3.14]

Same thing could be said about "In God We Trust" on our money. Yet we still have athiests throwing hissy fits over it as if it is somehow forcing them to believe in God. I couldn't care less about what my money said just as long as it bought what I needed.

this is more because they need money but rather not use it because it depicts there beliefs wrong

its like having to wear a hookcross to buy stuff

 

[Starfish]

Do you mean that an atheist, agnostic, or any non Christian should consider the convention of prayer will be held at lunchtime, and if they find it objectionable, they should simply not pursue an education at the Naval Academy?

If joining the academy meant I would have to sit through 6 lengthy prayers a day to accomodate the wishes of the majority, I might reconsider joining. It would factor in my decision.

Let's call that a "custom". It may be many things, but "logic" isn't one of them.

I wasn't talking about the logic of the prayer. I was talking about the logic of letting anyone who doesn't believe, abstain. The logic that it wouldn't hurt them to simply wait out the 30 second (or so) custom that brings much comfort to the majority. The logic of "I don't want to pray, so I won't. But I won't stand in the way the majority who wish to pray together".

Since breakfast and dinner aren't mentioned, we can assume the prayer doesn't take place then? Therefore, non-praying attendees have their way 2/3 of the time.

 

[Starfish]

Have you not heard of separation of church and state?

Yes. Thoroughly. I don't disagree with it. It was first said by Thomas Jefferson and IMO he was more motivated to protect religion from government, than in protecting government from religion. Simply holding a public prayer in the presence of atheists, is not forcing religion upon them. And it's not promoting any particular church either. You could say that at breakfast and dinner, atheistic custom is used and at lunch, theistic custom is used. Since 90% of our population believes in a god of some sort, this is hardly fair. But we're willing to accept it.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Naval Academy’s mandatory lunch time prayer under fire - Examiner.com

No matter how they try and worm their way around it, this has the appearance of being mandatory.

In 1970, Gideons distributed Bibles in my Jr High School. The ACLU used me as the sole plaintive in a suit brought against the Orange County School System. The suit was dropped in 1973 when the School Board agreed to suspend this kind of activity county wide. While they would have liked to take the suit all the way to the Supreme Court at the time, the unexpected compliance by the School Board stopped that from happening.

Unfortunately, the Constitution does not allow for us to pass any law regarding religion. This has both benefits as well as pit falls. It would appear, that by having the saying of ANY prayer at the beginning of the meal, the Navy has crossed this line. They are still required to uphold the Constitution.

For those of you crying about how your money is being spent, would you want the Navy, or our military in general, to stop providing chaplains for our Armed Forces? They do not force religious services or chaplain services on these soldiers, but should we deny them these options?

 

[McBell]

And it's not promoting any particular church either.

Unless they are bringing in leaders from the various local churches/mosques, etc. it pretty much is promoting one over the others.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Have you not heard of separation of church and state?

Yes, and it is not really addressed in the Constitution.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes. Thoroughly. I don't disagree with it. It was first said by Thomas Jefferson and IMO he was more motivated to protect religion from government, than in protecting government from religion. Simply holding a public prayer in the presence of atheists, is not forcing religion upon them. And it's not promoting any particular church either. You could say that at breakfast and dinner, atheistic custom is used and at lunch, theistic custom is used. Since 90% of our population believes in a god of some sort, this is hardly fair. But we're willing to accept it.

What would your opinion be if everyone there was forced to go to church on Sundays?

 

[Starfish]

Unless they are bringing in leaders from the various local churches/mosques, etc. it pretty much is promoting one over the others.

I believe the article said they rotate in different clergy from various religions.

 

[Starfish]

What would your opinion be if everyone there was forced to go to church on Sundays?

Who is being forced to go to church? I don't understand your point.
General George Washington made his troups attend church, as he felt it was good for them. General Washington, who knew the constitution quite well, would have been censored today.

 

[McBell]

I believe the article said they rotate in different clergy from various religions.

You are correct:

All 4,000 midshipmen gather for lunch formation. Following announcements, a chaplain then says a prayer. The unnamed midshipman said the chaplains, who include Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths, rotate saying the prayer.
​

 

[McBell]

Who is being forced to go to church? I don't understand your point.
General George Washington made his troups attend church, as he felt it was good for them. General Washington, who knew the constitution quite well, would have been censored today.

Sources please.

 

[Starfish]

Sources please.

The Religion of George Washington

"As Commander in Chief of the Continental Army during the fearful and uncertain days of the Revolution, Washington's firm belief in freedom of religion did not mean freedom from religion so far as his troops were concerned. In January 1777, the Army established its first permanent encampment since the siege of Boston at Morristown, New Jersey. One of the first matters Washington attended to was providing for regular Sunday worship for his men. On Saturday, 12 April 1777, he ordered that:

. . . . allthe troops in Morristown except the guards, are to attend divine worship tomorrow at the second bell; the officers commanding the Corps, are to take special care to have their men clean and decent, and that they are to march in proper order to the place of worship. 14"
​