Don Koenig posted this: http://www.thepropheticyears.com/cults/JW.htm . I'm beginning my reply, since this was reposted here by an RF member. (The sixth accusation has no bullet marker, it is separated):
* The Watchtower Society Bible is not a correct translation. It contains wrong translations that were willfully twisted to conform to their doctrine. They omit or add words to scripture to transform the scriptures to their doctrine.
I read your accusations; I'm not seeing examples to back them up. I'll offer some of mine: Who has 'omitted' God's Name from the Bible, over 6,800 times?! (Psalms 8:1; Psalms 8:9; and Psalms 110:1 are prime examples of the confusion this causes.) Was that "correct"? (Thank goodness the KJ kept it in 4 times, most notably at Psalms 83:18!) And what about 1 John 5:7-8? Or Why do most versions twist Jesus' meaning in translating the Greek "ge'enna" as 'fires of hell' (Mark 9:43; Matthew 5:22; etc), just to scare people, when it means nothing of the sort? And How about many Bibles, each translating the Hebrew word "Sheol" three different ways, as 'Hell', 'the pit', and 'the grave', again resulting in confusion? Some examples in the KJV (and note the context, how "hell" and "the grave" are used):
Psalms 18:5 -- hell
Jonah 2:2 -- hell
Genesis 37:35 -- the grave -- Sheol, aka, "hell" . (Jacob thought he was gonna be tormented forever?)
Genesis 42:38 -- the grave
1 Samuel 2:6 -- the grave
Job 3:22 -- the grave
Job 14:13 -- the grave
Psalms 30:3 -- the grave
Psalms 49:15 -- the grave
But even still, Jehovah's Witnesses are more than willing to use translations other than NWT in their discussions!
(But how is this 'cultic'?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that all Christian denominations are in grave error and that only they have the truth.
True. Why do we feel this way? Because our Savior, Jesus Himself, said it was His Father who "revealed" truth (Luke 10:21); not Jesus. And that is Who we worship: Jesus' Father, Jehovah. (John 4:22-24) The very first of the Ten Commandments states that He requires exclusive devotion.He is a jealous God. (Exodus 20:1-6) That is Who Jesus exclusively worshipped, the Most High. (Psalms 83:18; John 20:17) Is that who you worship? No, you worship a trinity.
(How Is this cultism?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus is a created angel and not the Creator co-eternal with the Father.
Many Biblical scholars apply Proverbs 8, about wisdom, to Jesus. Read Proverbs 8:22....he was "produced" as the beginning of God's way. This harmonizes with Revelation 3:12. Also, Colossians 1:15-16 says Jesus is the "firstborn".
(Again, how is this cultic?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that the trinity doctrine (which is the cornerstone of Christianity) was originated by Satan.
Any teaching that dilutes Jehovah's position as the "Most High" (Psalms 83:18), (and really, Christendom promotes Jesus over "his God and Father" (1 Corinthians 15:24),) it fits the Devil's purpose, no other's.
(cultic?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus is not Jehovah of the Bible but is a lesser created God.
No, the Bible does. As stated above, Jehovah is called the "Most High." But concerning Jesus, 1 Corinthians 11:3 says "the head of the Christ is God." (A person who is under someone cannot be the Most High.)
Jehovah Witnesses teach the Holy Spirit is a force and not a person.
A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matthew 3:11; Acts of the Apostles 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.
Jesus also referred to the holy spirit as a “helper” (Greek, pa·raʹkle·tos), and he said that this helper would “teach,” “bear witness,” “speak,” and ‘hear.’ (John 14:16-17; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:13) It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Romans 5:14-21) While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts of the Apostles 4:24-25; Acts of the Apostles 28:25; Matthew 10:19-20; compare Acts of the Apostles 20:23 with Acts of the Apostles 21:10-11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.
The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.—Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31.
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989271#h=4
(cultic?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach human reason is the utmost authority for determining if scripture is valid.
All Scripture is valid.....do you mean the understanding of it? This is a fabrication; I've never read this even as an accusation! What is needed is the Father's help, as Jesus said himself. --Luke 10:21
But the correct understanding should make sense. It should appeal to reason.
* Jehovah Witnesses teach the soul of man is mortal and that there is no hell or eternal punishment and that death is a cessation of consciousness.
No, (again,) the Bible says this. Regarding the soul, Ezekiel 18:4 is very plain when it says 'the soul that is sinning......dies' , and vs.20 reiterates it. Regarding hell, JW's never said it doesn't exist; we simply don't agree w/ mainstream Christendom's understanding of it. Lets go a little more in depth with the Scriptures, shall we?
The English word "hell" is translated from the Hebrew word "Sheol", and the Greek word "hades". How are these words used in the Scriptures? Let's find out by using three different translations (I'll highlight the words in bold):
First, David's words at 2 Samuel 22:6 (King David was a good guy):
American Standard Version: "The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me."
Byington: "the cords of the world below have gone round me, death’s snares approached me,"
KJV: "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"
See how Sheol corresponds to hell? Now read Genesis 44:31 (Jacobs sons talking about their Dad):
ASV: "it will come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants will bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to Sheol."
By: "when he sees that the boy is missing he will die, and your servants will be making your servant our father’s gray head carry sorrow down to the world of the dead."
KJV: "It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave."
Now KJV translates Sheol as the grave! Read Numbers 16:30,
ASV: "But if Jehovah make a new thing, and the ground open its mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down alive into Sheol; then ye shall understand that these men have despised Jehovah."
By: "but if Jehovah creates a special fate and the ground gapes and swallows them and everything that belongs to them and they go down alive to the world below, you will know that these men have been treating Jehovah with contempt.”
KJV: "But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD."
The KJV now says "the pit"! Using three *different* words to translate one word -- why? Ulterior motive?
Job 14:13 (Job's prayer to God):
ASV: "Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!"
By: "O that you would stow me away in the world below, screen me till your anger turned back, fix a date for me and remember me!"
KJV: "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!"
Here Job is praying to go to Sheol (remember, Sheol is hell), hoping that one day, God would "remember" him and get him out. Even back then, some hoped in a resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
ASV: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Vs.10:"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest."
By: "For the living know they are to die, but the dead do not know a thing, and no longer get any reward, because the memory of them is forgotten." Vs.10:"Everything that comes within your reach to do with your powers, do; because there is no action nor purpose nor knowledge nor wisdom in the world below, where you are going."
Verse 5 says the dead don't know anything. That makes sense; they're dead! Now, if the dead "know not anything" - or "are aware of nothing", how could they experience torment? In verse 10, we see those two phrases again, "Sheol" and "the world below"; remember, they mean "hell". Who was this passage written to? Just bad people? No, it's for everybody! So the Bible says that when we die, the place 'whither we goest' is to Sheol; yes, hell!
Psalms 16:10 ----David's words here were applied to Jesus by the Apostle Peter:
ASV: "For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption."
By: "Because you will not leave my soul to the realm of death, will not give up the man of your friendship to see dissolution."
KJV: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
The application to Jesus, is at Acts of the Apostles 2:27-31.
When he died, Jesus was in hell. But he wasn't 'left' there....three days later, he was resurrected.
Taking all these Scriptures together, it's easier to understand what the Bible "Hell" really is -- simply a state (or condition) which dead people are in, "resting in peace," as they say, until they come back to life when they are resurrected, both good and bad people.-Acts of the Apostles 24:15; John 5:28-29.
There've been some whom God considered so bad that they will not be resurrected. (Who knows, this group could include Hitler, maybe not.) The Bible says these go to "Gehenna" (Greek, 'ge'ena'), which is NOT Hades (Hell), but has been mistranslated as 'hellfire'. But Gehenna only means that those who die and go there, will NEVER be resurrected (come back to life again.) They will be gone forever. ("Resting In Peace" for eternity!)
(cultic?)
I'm done. The response I receive will determine whether there will be Part 2.
* The Watchtower Society Bible is not a correct translation. It contains wrong translations that were willfully twisted to conform to their doctrine. They omit or add words to scripture to transform the scriptures to their doctrine.
I read your accusations; I'm not seeing examples to back them up. I'll offer some of mine: Who has 'omitted' God's Name from the Bible, over 6,800 times?! (Psalms 8:1; Psalms 8:9; and Psalms 110:1 are prime examples of the confusion this causes.) Was that "correct"? (Thank goodness the KJ kept it in 4 times, most notably at Psalms 83:18!) And what about 1 John 5:7-8? Or Why do most versions twist Jesus' meaning in translating the Greek "ge'enna" as 'fires of hell' (Mark 9:43; Matthew 5:22; etc), just to scare people, when it means nothing of the sort? And How about many Bibles, each translating the Hebrew word "Sheol" three different ways, as 'Hell', 'the pit', and 'the grave', again resulting in confusion? Some examples in the KJV (and note the context, how "hell" and "the grave" are used):
Psalms 18:5 -- hell
Jonah 2:2 -- hell
Genesis 37:35 -- the grave -- Sheol, aka, "hell" . (Jacob thought he was gonna be tormented forever?)
Genesis 42:38 -- the grave
1 Samuel 2:6 -- the grave
Job 3:22 -- the grave
Job 14:13 -- the grave
Psalms 30:3 -- the grave
Psalms 49:15 -- the grave
But even still, Jehovah's Witnesses are more than willing to use translations other than NWT in their discussions!
(But how is this 'cultic'?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that all Christian denominations are in grave error and that only they have the truth.
True. Why do we feel this way? Because our Savior, Jesus Himself, said it was His Father who "revealed" truth (Luke 10:21); not Jesus. And that is Who we worship: Jesus' Father, Jehovah. (John 4:22-24) The very first of the Ten Commandments states that He requires exclusive devotion.He is a jealous God. (Exodus 20:1-6) That is Who Jesus exclusively worshipped, the Most High. (Psalms 83:18; John 20:17) Is that who you worship? No, you worship a trinity.
(How Is this cultism?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus is a created angel and not the Creator co-eternal with the Father.
Many Biblical scholars apply Proverbs 8, about wisdom, to Jesus. Read Proverbs 8:22....he was "produced" as the beginning of God's way. This harmonizes with Revelation 3:12. Also, Colossians 1:15-16 says Jesus is the "firstborn".
(Again, how is this cultic?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that the trinity doctrine (which is the cornerstone of Christianity) was originated by Satan.
Any teaching that dilutes Jehovah's position as the "Most High" (Psalms 83:18), (and really, Christendom promotes Jesus over "his God and Father" (1 Corinthians 15:24),) it fits the Devil's purpose, no other's.
(cultic?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach that Jesus is not Jehovah of the Bible but is a lesser created God.
No, the Bible does. As stated above, Jehovah is called the "Most High." But concerning Jesus, 1 Corinthians 11:3 says "the head of the Christ is God." (A person who is under someone cannot be the Most High.)
Jehovah Witnesses teach the Holy Spirit is a force and not a person.
A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matthew 3:11; Acts of the Apostles 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.
Jesus also referred to the holy spirit as a “helper” (Greek, pa·raʹkle·tos), and he said that this helper would “teach,” “bear witness,” “speak,” and ‘hear.’ (John 14:16-17; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:13) It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Romans 5:14-21) While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts of the Apostles 4:24-25; Acts of the Apostles 28:25; Matthew 10:19-20; compare Acts of the Apostles 20:23 with Acts of the Apostles 21:10-11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.
The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.—Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31.
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989271#h=4
(cultic?)
* Jehovah Witnesses teach human reason is the utmost authority for determining if scripture is valid.
All Scripture is valid.....do you mean the understanding of it? This is a fabrication; I've never read this even as an accusation! What is needed is the Father's help, as Jesus said himself. --Luke 10:21
But the correct understanding should make sense. It should appeal to reason.
* Jehovah Witnesses teach the soul of man is mortal and that there is no hell or eternal punishment and that death is a cessation of consciousness.
No, (again,) the Bible says this. Regarding the soul, Ezekiel 18:4 is very plain when it says 'the soul that is sinning......dies' , and vs.20 reiterates it. Regarding hell, JW's never said it doesn't exist; we simply don't agree w/ mainstream Christendom's understanding of it. Lets go a little more in depth with the Scriptures, shall we?
The English word "hell" is translated from the Hebrew word "Sheol", and the Greek word "hades". How are these words used in the Scriptures? Let's find out by using three different translations (I'll highlight the words in bold):
First, David's words at 2 Samuel 22:6 (King David was a good guy):
American Standard Version: "The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me."
Byington: "the cords of the world below have gone round me, death’s snares approached me,"
KJV: "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"
See how Sheol corresponds to hell? Now read Genesis 44:31 (Jacobs sons talking about their Dad):
ASV: "it will come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants will bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to Sheol."
By: "when he sees that the boy is missing he will die, and your servants will be making your servant our father’s gray head carry sorrow down to the world of the dead."
KJV: "It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave."
Now KJV translates Sheol as the grave! Read Numbers 16:30,
ASV: "But if Jehovah make a new thing, and the ground open its mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down alive into Sheol; then ye shall understand that these men have despised Jehovah."
By: "but if Jehovah creates a special fate and the ground gapes and swallows them and everything that belongs to them and they go down alive to the world below, you will know that these men have been treating Jehovah with contempt.”
KJV: "But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD."
The KJV now says "the pit"! Using three *different* words to translate one word -- why? Ulterior motive?
Job 14:13 (Job's prayer to God):
ASV: "Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!"
By: "O that you would stow me away in the world below, screen me till your anger turned back, fix a date for me and remember me!"
KJV: "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!"
Here Job is praying to go to Sheol (remember, Sheol is hell), hoping that one day, God would "remember" him and get him out. Even back then, some hoped in a resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5,10
ASV: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Vs.10:"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest."
By: "For the living know they are to die, but the dead do not know a thing, and no longer get any reward, because the memory of them is forgotten." Vs.10:"Everything that comes within your reach to do with your powers, do; because there is no action nor purpose nor knowledge nor wisdom in the world below, where you are going."
Verse 5 says the dead don't know anything. That makes sense; they're dead! Now, if the dead "know not anything" - or "are aware of nothing", how could they experience torment? In verse 10, we see those two phrases again, "Sheol" and "the world below"; remember, they mean "hell". Who was this passage written to? Just bad people? No, it's for everybody! So the Bible says that when we die, the place 'whither we goest' is to Sheol; yes, hell!
Psalms 16:10 ----David's words here were applied to Jesus by the Apostle Peter:
ASV: "For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption."
By: "Because you will not leave my soul to the realm of death, will not give up the man of your friendship to see dissolution."
KJV: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
The application to Jesus, is at Acts of the Apostles 2:27-31.
When he died, Jesus was in hell. But he wasn't 'left' there....three days later, he was resurrected.
Taking all these Scriptures together, it's easier to understand what the Bible "Hell" really is -- simply a state (or condition) which dead people are in, "resting in peace," as they say, until they come back to life when they are resurrected, both good and bad people.-Acts of the Apostles 24:15; John 5:28-29.
There've been some whom God considered so bad that they will not be resurrected. (Who knows, this group could include Hitler, maybe not.) The Bible says these go to "Gehenna" (Greek, 'ge'ena'), which is NOT Hades (Hell), but has been mistranslated as 'hellfire'. But Gehenna only means that those who die and go there, will NEVER be resurrected (come back to life again.) They will be gone forever. ("Resting In Peace" for eternity!)
(cultic?)
I'm done. The response I receive will determine whether there will be Part 2.
Last edited:
I appreciate you taking the time out to do that.