According to the Quran, Who is more important?

[Tranquil Servant]

I've been reading the Quran and I know Muslims hold Jesus in high regards. In both Christianity and Islam, it is believed that Jesus (Isa) is the Messiah born by God's will. However, In Christianity Jesus is the most important figure? Why is it in Islam the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) seems to be more important than the Messiah? Also, how can some Muslims believe that another Messiah (Mahdi) will come, If Jesus is regarded as the Messiah?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

No reply yet..?

 

[F0uad]

I think i will be the first one replying.

I will make this brief and short the general view is that Mohammed(saws) is the last prophet and messenger for all human-kind wherein Jesus(pbuh) and previous prophets/messengers were only for that community or time.

The Mahdi is not considered to be the Messiah but a important person who will come before Jesus(pbuh) he will lead the Muslims & certain Christians until Jesus(p) the messiah comes and kills the Antichrist ''dajall'' in arabic.

I think if you asked these questions on the DIR you would get a much faster reply.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I think i will be the first one replying.

I will make this brief and short the general view is that Mohammed(saws) is the last prophet and messenger for all human-kind wherein Jesus(pbuh) and previous prophets/messengers were only for that community or time.

The Mahdi is not considered to be the Messiah but a important person who will come before Jesus(pbuh) he will lead the Muslims & certain Christians until Jesus(p) the messiah comes and kills the Antichrist ''dajall'' in arabic.

I think if you asked these questions on the DIR you would get a much faster reply.

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, all make references to the Messiah but each way of life interprets or defines the Messiah differently. However, Christians try to define the Messiah using the Bible's Old Testament (which contains the books of the Torah) and the New Testament. How do Muslims define the Messiah or interpret his role. Do Muslims refer back to the Torah too? If so, may you give me an example or source?
Also, when I search the term "Messiah" online, the Mahdi always pops up. Why?

 

[F0uad]

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, all make references to the Messiah but each way of life interprets or defines the Messiah differently. However, Christians try to define the Messiah using the Bible's Old Testament (which contains the books of the Torah) and the New Testament. How do Muslims define the Messiah or interpret his role. Do Muslims refer back to the Torah too? If so, may you give me an example or source?
Also, when I search the term "Messiah" online, the Mahdi always pops up. Why?

Well the real definition of Messiah is ''The anointed one'' however i will elaborate a little more on what the majority of Muslims belief.

Surah: 43:61 And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour)

Clearly states that Jesus(pbuh) will be a sign that judgement-day is near.

Surah: 19:33 "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

This implies that Jesus will die someday and is not death yet. The unified opinion of the majority of Muslims maintains that the bodily death of Jesus(pbuh) will happen after his second coming.

Many classical commentators and respected scholars such as Ibn Kathir, At-Tabari, al-Qurtubi, Suyuti, al-Undlusi (Bahr al-Muhit), Abu al-Fadl al-Alusi (Ruh al-Maani) clearly mention that verse 43:61 of the Qur'an refers to the descent of Jesus(pbuh) before the Day of Resurrection, indicating that Jesus(pbuh) would be the Sign that the Hour is close.

Some Authentic hadiths that claims that Jesus(pbuh) is the messiah:

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, Son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no one will accept charitable gifts.(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 34, No. 425)

The Hour will not be established until the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizyah tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 43, No. 656)

I swear by Him in Whose hands is my life that soon there will descend among you Hazrat Isa Ibn-e-Mariam as a Just Ruler; so (he) will break the 'cross', kill swine and prohibit war!

(Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, No. 668, Book of Prophets, P. 490)

And there are many more.
​

Now to further answer your question regarding the Mahdi:

A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus Son of Mary will then descend and their (Muslims') commander (Al Mahdi) will invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honor from Allah for this Ummah.
(Sahih Muslim, Book 1, No. 0293)

As you can clearly see the Mahdi will be the ''leader'' of the Muslim Ummah wherein Jesus(pbuh) will take the role of Messiah. There is no Quranic verse that gives references to the Torah on the subject of the messiah directly however the Quran does give the indication that one shall follow the ''truth'' that remains in it.

I am not sure how Christians can refer to the first 5 books of the OT ''Torah'' since you would have big contradictions of Jesus(pbuh) being one, what confirms the corruption of the Torah in the Islamic view.

 

[Lady B]

[QUOTEI am not sure how Christians can refer to the first 5 books of the OT ''Torah'' since you would have big contradictions of Jesus(pbuh) being one, what confirms the corruption of the Torah in the Islamic view.]

What do you mean exactly? How does Jesus contradict the law of Moses? We believe the entire bible, including the law, where we differ from Judaism is the fulfillment of the law.
the following information was borrowed from CARM
The Torah is the Law, commonly known as the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The rest of the books of the Old Testament are known as "The Prophets." The word ‘torah’ means ‘instruction’ or ‘teaching,’ and the majority of it consists of instructions given to Moses by God at Mount Sinai.
The Law, the Torah given in the first five books, consists of three main categories. First, there is the moral Law dealing with such things as lying, adultery, theft, etc., (Exodus 20). Second, there is the judicial aspect of the Law (Deuteronomy 17:8-11) which deals with punishments, disputes, government rulings, etc. Finally, the third aspect of the law is the priestly or sacrificial system (Leviticus 7:37; Numbers 19:2). These instructions deal with how to sacrifice animals, what the priests are to do and where, etc.
The moral part of the law is based on the character of God and can never be done away with. It is always wrong to lie, cheat, and steal. However, since we are no longer under a theocratic system of government (government ruled by strict religious law), the judicial aspect of the law is not in effect. Likewise, because the priestly/sacrificial system of the Old Testament pointed to Christ, and Christ fulfilled the sacrificial system by dying on the cross, that aspect of the law is no longer in effect either.

 

[F0uad]

What do you mean exactly? How does Jesus contradict the law of Moses? We believe the entire bible, including the law, where we differ from Judaism is the fulfillment of the law.
the following information was borrowed from CARM
The Torah is the Law, commonly known as the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The rest of the books of the Old Testament are known as "The Prophets." The word ‘torah’ means ‘instruction’ or ‘teaching,’ and the majority of it consists of instructions given to Moses by God at Mount Sinai.
The Law, the Torah given in the first five books, consists of three main categories. First, there is the moral Law dealing with such things as lying, adultery, theft, etc., (Exodus 20). Second, there is the judicial aspect of the Law (Deuteronomy 17:8-11) which deals with punishments, disputes, government rulings, etc. Finally, the third aspect of the law is the priestly or sacrificial system (Leviticus 7:37; Numbers 19:2). These instructions deal with how to sacrifice animals, what the priests are to do and where, etc.
The moral part of the law is based on the character of God and can never be done away with. It is always wrong to lie, cheat, and steal. However, since we are no longer under a theocratic system of government (government ruled by strict religious law), the judicial aspect of the law is not in effect. Likewise, because the priestly/sacrificial system of the Old Testament pointed to Christ, and Christ fulfilled the sacrificial system by dying on the cross, that aspect of the law is no longer in effect either.

Just a question do you know why the reasons are that Jews reject Jesus(pbuh) as the messiah? To start with the messianic messiah has to be of David's(pbuh) blood-line according to the Old-testament and there are plenty more that's why i said that the book itself is corrupted. What you just quoted makes no sense and is not relevant on what i have said. The ''fulfilment'' of what? Don't you know that human-sacrifice are forbidden according to the same chapters you just posted.


Ps: if you want to have a debate or discussion about the ''laws'' if one should follow it or not, please make a new topic in a different section.

 

[Lady B]

Just a question do you know why the reasons are that Jews reject Jesus(pbuh) as the messiah? To start with the messianic messiah has to be of David's(pbuh) blood-line according to the Old-testament and there are plenty more that's why i said that the book itself is corrupted. What you just quoted makes no sense and is not relevant on what i have said. The ''fulfilment'' of what? Don't you know that human-sacrifice are forbidden according to the same chapters you just posted.

Ok then i stay confused. I asked you first what do you mean, then showed you what christians believe reg. the torah.

 

[F0uad]

Well i personally don't belief that Jesus(pbuh) contradicted any laws since he was bringing a ''less-strict'' law given by God himself. However i do not agree on the ''Christians'' of these time on how lose they are since Jesus(pbuh) himself always quoted the law and refereed to it (according to the bible). Nor do laws past away as Jesus(pbuh) said according to the bible.

What i meant was that if we would refer to the Torah to see if Jesus(pbuh) is the messiah (what Christians do) we would have problems and i already mentioned one such as the blood-line of David(pbuh). What Christians in general do (with all respect) is cherry-picking but what contradicts they ignore, we Muslims rather belief that he is the messiah without referring to any Jewish scripture.

 

[FearGod]

I've been reading the Quran and I know Muslims hold Jesus in high regards. In both Christianity and Islam, it is believed that Jesus (Isa) is the Messiah born by God's will. However, In Christianity Jesus is the most important figure? Why is it in Islam the prophet Muhammed (PBUH) seems to be more important than the Messiah? Also, how can some Muslims believe that another Messiah (Mahdi) will come, If Jesus is regarded as the Messiah?

According to the quran all prophets are equal

Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves." (3:84)

Mahdi isn't the messiah,he is only enlightened for guidance,but the messiah is Jesus (Issa) pbuh.

 

[Lady B]

Well i personally don't belief that Jesus(pbuh) contradicted any laws since he was bringing a ''less-strict'' law given by God himself. However i do not agree on the ''Christians'' of these time on how lose they are since Jesus(pbuh) himself always quoted the law and refereed to it (according to the bible). Nor do laws past away as Jesus(pbuh) said according to the bible.

What i meant was that if we would refer to the Torah to see if Jesus(pbuh) is the messiah (what Christians do) we would have problems and i already mentioned one such as the blood-line of David(pbuh). What Christians in general do (with all respect) is cherry-picking but what contradicts they ignore, we Muslims rather belief that he is the messiah without referring to any Jewish scripture.

what problem would a Christian have with the bloodline of David? Jesus is from the bloodline of David as prophesied. I also think you are confusing the torah with the old testament. The Torah is the first 5 books, Moses did prophesy Christ there but this is one of many prophesies in the old testament.What contradictions are you acusing christians of ignoring? and what do we cherry pick? we have the entire Bible and believe all. Jews take some of the old testament.

 

[F0uad]

According to the quran all prophets are equal

Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves." (3:84)

Mahdi isn't the messiah,he is only enlightened for guidance,but the messiah is Jesus (Issa) pbuh.

Yes only the Amhaddiya community beliefs that the messiah and the mahdi are the same person.

Feargod you should read: Islam Question and Answer - Are the Prophets Equal?

 

[F0uad]

what problem would a Christian have with the bloodline of David? Jesus is from the bloodline of David as prophesied. I also think you are confusing the torah with the old testament. The Torah is the first 5 books, Moses did prophesy Christ there but this is one of many prophesies in the old testament.What contradictions are you acusing christians of ignoring? and what do we cherry pick? we have the entire Bible and believe all. Jews take some of the old testament.

Well if you want to have a debate about a certain subject you should open a new topic i will reply brief on some of the things you said.

Jesus(pbuh) is not from the bloodline of David(pbuh) since Jesus(pbuh) was ''conceived'' by Marry(pbuh) and without male intervention or do you belief that Joseph and mary(pbuh) both created Jesus(pbuh)?

I know that the Torah are the first 5 books of the old-testament as i have mentioned this now a couple of times.

Well cherry-picking such as that Jesus(pbuh) will be named Emmanuel however he is never named Emmanuel according to the gospel but once. I can give a huge list however this is not important for me since Muslims already belief that he is the messiah. All that i am saying is that if you took the scriptures of what the Jews use and see it fully as divined inspired then you have a problem since the Jews themselves uses there scripture to deny him.


Ps: i don't want to change subjects so please create a new topic if you are interested.

 

[Iti oj]

Allah is most important stop prophet worshipping

 

[Lady B]

Well if you want to have a debate about a certain subject you should open a new topic i will reply brief on some of the things you said.

Jesus(pbuh) is not from the bloodline of David(pbuh) since Jesus(pbuh) was ''conceived'' by Marry(pbuh) and without male intervention or do you belief that Joseph and mary(pbuh) both created Jesus(pbuh)?

I know that the Torah are the first 5 books of the old-testament as i have mentioned this now a couple of times.

Well cherry-picking such as that Jesus(pbuh) will be named Emmanuel however he is never named Emmanuel according to the gospel but once. I can give a huge list however this is not important for me since Muslims already belief that he is the messiah. All that i am saying is that if you took the scriptures of what the Jews use and see it fully as divined inspired then you have a problem since the Jews themselves uses there scripture to deny him.


Ps: i don't want to change subjects so please create a new topic if you are interested.

funny how everytime I reply to your posts, you say I need to go make another thread lol
I will not reply again.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I think I understand Islam a little bit more than the average "Christian" cause my Hubby is Muslim and to my understanding according to Islam, didn't God specifically bring Jesus (born through a virgin birth) into this world to correct the teachings and scriptures of the Torah which were corrupted?.... If he did come to correct the Torah, why in the Gospels he says that he didn't come to do away with the law but fulfill it and that he wasn't bringing anything new?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

When reading the Old Testament of the Bible, you'll notice that many times God would condemn the people who worshiped him, for marrying people of different tribes who held different beliefs so up until the time of Jesus it was tradition and customary to marry someone of the same bloodline or tribe. Therefore Mary and Joseph were from king David's bloodline. The reason why Mary's genealogy isn't mentioned is because it was another customary tradition to list the man's genealogy since the man is the head of the family. There were many important women in the Old Testament like Sarah who's genealogy isn't mention.

 

[F0uad]

When reading the Old Testament of the Bible, you'll notice that many times God would condemn the people who worshiped him, for marrying people of different tribes who held different beliefs so up until the time of Jesus it was tradition and customary to marry someone of the same bloodline or tribe. Therefore Mary and Joseph were from king David's bloodline. The reason why Mary's genealogy isn't mentioned is because it was another customary tradition to list the man's genealogy since the man is the head of the family. There were many important women in the Old Testament like Sarah who's genealogy isn't mention.

Well i can agree that according the bible that Joseph was from the blood-line of David(pbuh) however that isn't important since Jesus(pbuh) was conceived without male intervention. Well i am not sure how you came to the conclusion that she is from hes blood-line because simply it was ''tradition or customary'' there is just no reference confirming even it even if it was tradition. Remember this is not my argument i was just using one of the 1000's that most Jews use against Jesus(pbuh).

I think I understand Islam a little bit more than the average "Christian" cause my Hubby is Muslim and to my understanding according to Islam, didn't God specifically bring Jesus (born through a virgin birth) into this world to correct the teachings and scriptures of the Torah which were corrupted?.... If he did come to correct the Torah, why in the Gospels he says that he didn't come to do away with the law but fulfill it and that he wasn't bringing anything new?

Well those are good questions since there are verses in the new-testament and old-testament that gives a indication he brought something new, the majority of Christians hold the position that the ''laws'' where ''destroyed'' in a sense because the coming of a new covenant and he's ''sacrifice'' something to do about a fulfilment. However Jesus(pbuh) is very clear on the notion that the laws will remain until end of time.

In my understanding Jesus(pbuh) was trying to maintain certain laws and ''loosen up'' on certain laws. Since the Jewish judged in that time where hardened people who abused the laws for there own interest and had no place for judging with mercy.
So it comes down to this Jesus(pbuh) was sent to ''abrogate'' certain laws, teach spirituality, teach to be kind/merciful, convey the message that he is the messiah and expand more on the revelation from god given true him.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Well i can agree that according the bible that Joseph was from the blood-line of David(pbuh) however that isn't important since Jesus(pbuh) was conceived without male intervention. Well i am not sure how you came to the conclusion that she is from hes blood-line because simply it was ''tradition or customary'' there is just no reference confirming even it even if it was tradition. Remember this is not my argument i was just using one of the 1000's that most Jews use against Jesus(pbuh).


Well those are good questions since there are verses in the new-testament and old-testament that gives a indication he brought something new, the majority of Christians hold the position that the ''laws'' where ''destroyed'' in a sense because the coming of a new covenant and he's ''sacrifice'' something to do about a fulfilment. However Jesus(pbuh) is very clear on the notion that the laws will remain until end of time.

In my understanding Jesus(pbuh) was trying to maintain certain laws and ''loosen up'' on certain laws. Since the Jewish judged in that time where hardened people who abused the laws for there own interest and had no place for judging with mercy.
So it comes down to this Jesus(pbuh) was sent to ''abrogate'' certain laws, teach spirituality, teach to be kind/merciful, convey the message that he is the messiah and expand more on the revelation from god given true him.

You and I agree that the Bloodline isn't important since he was born by the will of God along with Mary being pure (virgin). However, I don't hold that same position of the average Christian that the laws given by God were "destroyed" because of the coming of Christ. My position is that he came to fulfill the covenant that was declared by God since the beginning (Genesis 3:14-15) and to give the laws their true meaning; Like that of the sacrificial laws which were held by Jews. In the Old Testament, God mentioned many times that he did not care about the sacrifices because the law was given for symbolic reasons not for physical. According to Christianity, God did not command people to make sacrifices. when Kane and Abel made sacrifices to God, it was to symbolize their faith and submission to him by sacrificing (or giving up) something that was supposed to be of value here on earth. God gave them laws (through Moses) for sacrifices as a symbolic act of mercy and because he did not want the people who worshiped him to do so in the same manner that others who worshiped false gods did. So to prove their repentance, faith, loyalty, and submission, they would follow this law. Soon after, people would offer sacrifices but continue in their sinful ways and this is why God stopped caring for sacrifices (1Samuel 15:21-23). Jesus taught that those who wish to obey God, must sacrifice fleshly desires in order to refrain from sinning and he served as the ultimate example and symbol of sacrifice of God to show us (Humans) that if God can humble himself (which I believe God is the most humble) enough to come into the world in human form, refrain from sin, sacrifice his flesh and his life for us, then we should do the same for God by refraining from our fleshy ways and submitting our lives to God.

I know my view is not typical. It's because I am a non-trinitarian.

 

[F0uad]

You and I agree that the Bloodline isn't important since he was born by the will of God along with Mary being pure (virgin). However, I don't hold that same position of the average Christian that the laws given by God were "destroyed" because of the coming of Christ. My position is that he came to fulfill the covenant that was declared by God since the beginning (Genesis 3:14-15) and to give the laws their true meaning; Like that of the sacrificial laws which were held by Jews. In the Old Testament, God mentioned many times that he did not care about the sacrifices because the law was given for symbolic reasons not for physical. According to Christianity, God did not command people to make sacrifices. when Kane and Abel made sacrifices to God, it was to symbolize their faith and submission to him by sacrificing (or giving up) something that was supposed to be of value here on earth. God gave them laws (through Moses) for sacrifices as a symbolic act of mercy and because he did not want the people who worshiped him to do so in the same manner that others who worshiped false gods did. So to prove their repentance, faith, loyalty, and submission, they would follow this law. Soon after, people would offer sacrifices but continue in their sinful ways and this is why God stopped caring for sacrifices (1Samuel 15:21-23). Jesus taught that those who wish to obey God, must sacrifice fleshly desires in order to refrain from sinning and he served as the ultimate example and symbol of sacrifice of God to show us (Humans) that if God can humble himself (which I believe God is the most humble) enough to come into the world in human form, refrain from sin, sacrifice his flesh and his life for us, then we should do the same for God by refraining from our fleshy ways and submitting our lives to God.

I know my view is not typical. It's because I am a non-trinitarian.

Well i also do not hold the view that he ''destroyed'' the laws even according to the bible however i think you are contradicting yourself first your claiming that god has enough of sacrifices but later on your telling that jesus(pbuh) sacrificed himself . Human sacrifices are forbidden and everyone is judged for hes own accord according to the bible so i think the contradiction still exist.