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Abrahamics Only: Should there be a Karaite label under the Judaism tab?

rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
Do you really think the sticks were the reason the man was killed? I mean seriously, do you really think that YHVH just kills people because the picked up the wrong item. Or was this man being overtly rebellious to YHVH's command. I guess it depends on ones perception of YHVH Himself.
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Do you really think that breaking a rule doesn't deserve punishment, but the idea of rebellion deserves death? Can you show me a black letter prohibition against collecting sticks? Or including it as "work"? If not, he wasn't rebelling against anything.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
Messianic Judaism teaches salvation only via Yeshua. Not through repentance and Torah observance. Major difference imho.
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Actually not all messianic Judaism teaches that. Why is it that the addition of another person, and an interpretation of the text should invalidate someone from "Judaism"? Why not include Christianity as a sect of Judaism. It is simply the adopting of another prophet and interpretation of laws. And Islam. Why not? If it is acceptable to reject half of Judaism, then what about more or less, or add something?
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
Do you really think that breaking a rule doesn't deserve punishment, but the idea of rebellion deserves death? Can you show me a black letter prohibition against collecting sticks? Or including it as "work"? If not, he wasn't rebelling against anything.
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I believe that this man made a conscious decision to break YHVH's commandment. I do believe there is a world of difference between the concept of rebellion and foolish sins. Consider Numbers 15:

If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering.The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven . . . .The person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him. Numbers 15:27-31

The Hebrew words in the Numbers passage which are translated "unintentionally", and "presumptuously" actually paint a different picture than the English words indicate. The Hebrew word for sins committed "presumptuously"actually means "defiantly", and the word carries with it the picture of one's fist held high. While the Hebrew word for "ignorantly" pictures someone who errs by imprudence or lack of wisdom... or in short, foolishly. This picture would then include the great bulk of sins committed that could be termed "intentional". Most sins are committed foolishly by individuals who know they should keep their head low because they are walking on thin ice with God. It is the outright defiant shaking one's fist in God's face that God will accept no atonement for.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
Actually not all messianic Judaism teaches that. Why is it that the addition of another person, and an interpretation of the text should invalidate someone from "Judaism"? Why not include Christianity as a sect of Judaism. It is simply the adopting of another prophet and interpretation of laws. And Islam. Why not? If it is acceptable to reject half of Judaism, then what about more or less, or add something?
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Yes, all Messianic Jews believe in Paul's "faith alone" doctrine. Not in repentance via Torah observance.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
I believe that this man made a conscious decision to break YHVH's commandment. I do believe there is a world of difference between the concept of rebellion foolish sins. Consider Numbers 15:

If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering.The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven . . . .The person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him. Numbers 15:27-31

The Hebrew words in the Numbers passage which are translated "unintentionally", and "presumptuously" actually paint a different picture than the English words indicate. The Hebrew word for sins committed "presumptuously"actually means "defiantly", and the word carries with it the picture of one's fist held high. While the Hebrew word for "ignorantly" pictures someone who errs by imprudence or lack of wisdom... or in short, foolishly. This picture would then include the great bulk of sins committed that could be termed "intentional". Most sins are committed foolishly by individuals who know they should keep their head low because they are walking on thin ice with God. It is the outright defiant shaking one's fist in God's face that God will accept no atonement for.
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Actually, the word is b'shogeg which means "as an accident". There is nothing about "foolish" in the word. And YOU BELIEVE that the man acted in a certain way. That's completely extra-textual. The text says nothing to that effect -- it is written very simply. The man did something. The man was punished. The text makes it obvious that the punishment develops from the action, not some assumed intent you impute.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
Actually, the word is b'shogeg which means "as an accident". There is nothing about "foolish" in the word. And YOU BELIEVE that the man acted in a certain way. That's completely extra-textual. The text says nothing to that effect -- it is written very simply. The man did something. The man was punished. The text makes it obvious that the punishment develops from the action, not some assumed intent you impute.
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The translation "as an accident" even implies that it wasn't premeditated.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
I guess you haven't met the messianics I have. I'll make sure to tell them that you know better what they believe.
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Feel free to. I am speaking about official Messianic Jewish institutions. Of course someone could claim the title outside of the institution.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
rosends said:
Actually, the word is b'shogeg which means "as an accident". There is nothing about "foolish" in the word. And YOU BELIEVE that the man acted in a certain way. That's completely extra-textual.
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What is extra-textual is using this verse to create a need for 39 prohibitive works which have no basis in the Torah.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
The translation "as an accident" even implies that it wasn't premeditated.
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Actually, shogeg means accident in the sense that someone either doesn't know that the action is not permitted or that it isn't permitted at a particular time. Someone who didn't intend to commit an act and did so accidentally is an oneis.
 
Flankerl

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Avi1001 said:
I am pleased to second the motion to create a Karaite tab in the Judaism DIR. I would say, most of the discussion, these last 164 posts, supports this motion.

All in favor...say Ay... ! Ay !!!
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No that won't happen.

Whether something gets added or substracted to/from the Judaism DIR depends on the residents of the Judaism DIR not "Abrahamics".


Long story short: Bugger off.
 
Avi1001

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Simplelogic said:
Haha. Probably not. Defenders of institutions usually hate me.
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Your best hope is to post in the debate forum...stay out of the DIRs....same as me.

My hope is to someday have a DIR of our own...an "Interfaith DIR... !!
 
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