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Abrahamics Only: Should there be a Karaite label under the Judaism tab?

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
No, and, based on your past posts regarding your belief in Jesus in the Christian Bible, no.
The Messianic Judaism DIR would most likely be a better fit.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
What do my beliefs have to do with my question?? Karaite Jews are a valid sect of Judaism. Karaite Judaism does not believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. Why do they not deserve a tab? There are other sects in Judaism which hold to different Messianic claims (which Karaites do not). Why make this about me anyways??

BTW. I reject 80% of the NT.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
What do my beliefs have to do with my question?? Karaite Jews are a valid sect of Judaism. Karaite Judaism does not believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. Why do they not deserve a tab? There are other sects in Judaism which hold to different Messianic claims (which Karaites do not). Why make this about me anyways??

BTW. I reject 80% of the NT.
Karaites aren't considered a "valid sect" of Judaism (even the wiki article states as much).
And you asked: "I am a Jew who keeps the written Torah commands. Am I considered a practicing Jew to Rabbinic Jews?"

You made it about you.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
And I gave you two answers, one for each question.

Shabbat shalom.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
No. But I have no objection to a Karaite subforum of Abrahamic Religions, just like Christianity, Rastafarianism, and other such religions.
 

Tali018

Member
IMPOV there are too many Judaism DIRs in this subforum. Orthodox should be renamed Torah Observant and include Orthodox, Haredi, Hasidic & Karaite , Conservative should stay asis, Reform should include Humanistic and reconstructionist and maybe add a Secular DIR.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
IMPOV there are too many Judaism DIRs in this subforum. Orthodox should be renamed Torah Observant and include Orthodox, Haredi, Hasidic & Karaite , Conservative should stay asis, Reform should include Humanistic and reconstructionist and maybe add a Secular DIR.

C'mon, Karaism has nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism-- whatever the flaws of either may be. It might be interesting to divide the DIR up as Halachic (Orthodox and Conservative) and Non-Halachic (everyone else) Judaism, but I would always want to discourage the usage of the label "Torah Observant," which I think is just spin doctoring for a certain kind of frum outlook.

But it's just as silly to try and fold in Karaism with Orthodoxy as it is to fold Humanistic into Reform-- the two are nothing alike. And for that matter, Reconstructionist doesn't really belong with Reform, either. It really is it's own thing. There's probably more difference between Reconstructionist and Reform or Humanistic and Reform than between, say Gerer Chassidim and Brisker Litvaks, or between Satmarers and Lubavitchers.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
I would like to see a Karaite forum and I don't care where it is located.

I agree, it can be in Abrahamic root DIR. Feel free to request this in site feedback, but be aware with the new forum format and changes it may take a while.
 

Tali018

Member
C'mon, Karaism has nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism-- whatever the flaws of either may be. It might be interesting to divide the DIR up as Halachic (Orthodox and Conservative) and Non-Halachic (everyone else) Judaism, but I would always want to discourage the usage of the label "Torah Observant," which I think is just spin doctoring for a certain kind of frum outlook.

But it's just as silly to try and fold in Karaism with Orthodoxy as it is to fold Humanistic into Reform-- the two are nothing alike. And for that matter, Reconstructionist doesn't really belong with Reform, either. It really is it's own thing. There's probably more difference between Reconstructionist and Reform or Humanistic and Reform than between, say Gerer Chassidim and Brisker Litvaks, or between Satmarers and Lubavitchers.

There are basically four groups Jews will fall into in general. Either create the four or one as Judaism. Creating a dozen sub categories for groups that have a generally small following does more to separate Jews then bring them together. Keep in mind that this is not YWN (Yeshiva World News) so most would not post here since this is not a kosher site.
 

Rhiamom

Member
The Judaism DIR would be the appropriate place. Karaites might be considered heretical, but nobody denies that they are Jews. Orthodox Judaism considers Reform to be heretical, too, and they are in the Judaism DIR.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
The Judaism DIR would be the appropriate place. Karaites might be considered heretical, but nobody denies that they are Jews. Orthodox Judaism considers Reform to be heretical, too, and they are in the Judaism DIR.

First of all, there certainly can be questions about Karaites being Jewish: they practice patrilineal descent, and have for many centuries, and thus often intermarry with non-Jewish women. So to the best of my knowledge, most halachists have advised that Rabbinic Jews cannot marry Karaites or use them as halachic witnesses or count them in minyanim, etc., unless it has been verified that their mother and her maternal line have been halachically Jewish for quite a number of generations.

It's true the same problem begins to present itself for Reform Jews, but Reform Judaism has only been practicing patrilineal descent for a few decades, and they also accept matrilineal descent as well, so the problem has not yet gotten to the point where one has to presume that a Reform Jew is not halachically Jewish: one can still safely assume that if a Reform Jew's mother was Jewish, that person is halachically Jewish, and need not ask further (though of course many in the Orthodox world now do just that).

Second of all, Reform Jews technically have not abjured the Oral Torah. Halachically they err in deeming mitzvot d'rabbanan (Rabbinic mitzvot) and certain Rabbinic interpretations of the toledot (unfolding progressions of sub-mitzvot extrapolated from a major mitzvah) optional rather than mandatory. But technically, they do not outright reject that Rabbinic Judaism is authentic Judaism and the teachings of the Rabbis the basis for how to practice Judaism.

Whereas Karaites do abjure the Oral Torah, and completely deny the authority and authenticity of Rabbinic teaching as the basis for how to practice Judaism.

Furthermore, Reform Judaism was begun with what we might call from a traditional standpoint errors of good faith and intention. They wished to better practice Judaism in a modern age, which is good, but made (from a traditional standpoint) errors in their choices as to how to accomplish that. But Karaism was begun with an error born of pride, arrogance, and overweening ambition: Anan ben David, the founder of the Karaite sect, began it not because of deep philosophical motivations, but because of frustrated political ambition. He wanted to be Reish Galuta (Exilarch), was passed over for the office, and blamed the Gaonim (the heads of the two Rabbinic Academies of Babylonia). In a fit of pique, he broke with the Jewish community, rejected the authority of the Gaonim, and in order to do so, rejected the authority of the Rabbis of the Talmud and the Oral Torah they taught, instead claiming to be a revival of the Tzedoki (Sadducee) sect with the virtue of Biblical literalism (despite his new movement's inevitable need to immediately begin interpreting the Torah, since it is unable to be put into practice through strict literalism).

Reform Judaism may be considered heretical by some, but there is still ample reason to include them, and inadequate reason to exclude them. Whether the same will be true in a hundred years is an open question; but for now, it is hard to say otherwise. But if Karaism was ever in the same position, it was over a thousand years ago: their ship has sailed.

So no, I see no reason for them to have a place in the Judaism DIR, since normative Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism. They should certainly have a sub-DIR in the Abrahamic DIR, if they want one. But they don't belong with us any more than Samaritans would, or Messianic Judaism.
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
First of all, there certainly can be questions about Karaites being Jewish: they practice patrilineal descent, and have for many centuries, and thus often intermarry with non-Jewish women. So to the best of my knowledge, most halachists have advised that Rabbinic Jews cannot marry Karaites or use them as halachic witnesses or count them in minyanim, etc., unless it has been verified that their mother and her maternal line have been halachically Jewish for quite a number of generations.

The Karaites are actually correct on this issue imho. The Tanakh clearly teaches patrilineal descent. This is not a good reason to discredit the belief, especially considering the fact that this belief is easy to prove from the scriptures.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Second of all, Reform Jews technically have not abjured the Oral Torah. Halachically they err in deeming mitzvot d'rabbanan (Rabbinic mitzvot) and certain Rabbinic interpretations of the toledot (unfolding progressions of sub-mitzvot extrapolated from a major mitzvah) optional rather than mandatory. But technically, they do not outright reject that Rabbinic Judaism is authentic Judaism and the teachings of the Rabbis the basis for how to practice Judaism.

Whereas Karaites do abjure the Oral Torah, and completely deny the authority and authenticity of Rabbinic teaching as the basis for how to practice Judaism.

Doesn't it seem a bit odd that the written Torah is not the basis for a sects inclusion into the religion? The very fact that you are defining Judaism by adherence to the oral traditions is backwards and discredits the many Jewish sects throughout history who rejected it.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="Levite, post: 4032479, member:

Furthermore, Reform Judaism was begun with what we might call from a traditional standpoint errors of good faith and intention. They wished to better practice Judaism in a modern age, which is good, but made (from a traditional standpoint) errors in their choices as to how to accomplish that. But Karaism was begun with an error born of pride, arrogance, and overweening ambition: Anan ben David, the founder of the Karaite sect, began it not because of deep philosophical motivations, but because of frustrated political ambition. He wanted to be Reish Galuta (Exilarch), was passed over for the office, and blamed the Gaonim (the heads of the two Rabbinic Academies of Babylonia). In a fit of pique, he broke with the Jewish community, rejected the authority of the Gaonim, and in order to do so, rejected the authority of the Rabbis of the Talmud and the Oral Torah they taught, instead claiming to be a revival of the Tzedoki (Sadducee) sect with the virtue of Biblical literalism (despite his new movement's inevitable need to immediately begin interpreting the Torah, since it is unable to be put into practice through strict literalism).
[/QUOTE]

I know many Karaites and your opinions of them being "strict literalist" is not true. Karaites do believe in trying to understand the clearest interpretation of the text in the context it was written. This does not mean that the application works this way.
 
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