Abrahamic youth histories / traditions

[Clear]

Is there ANYONE who is familiar with accurate extra-Quranic and extra-biblical Muslim / Jewish / Christian histories regarding the Prophet Abraham?

1) I am interested in Abraham’s early youth histories while Terah is still manufacturing “Idols” for his town and while the young Abraham is in the process of discovering the true character of these idols but has not yet discovered the true God. I do not need more Abrahamic infant histories.


2) I am also especially interested specifically in rare versions of Abraham’s “dream-vision of the palm" (later in life) as a prelude to Sarai being the means of saving him as they enter egypt.


(I don’t need “fire of Ur” histories unless you have unusual versions of it.)


Thank you in advance for any contribution


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[Harmonious]

I don't understand the question. What exactly are you looking for?

 

[Clear]

Hello Harmonious - Another person asked critically regarding why I wanted EXTRA-SCRIPTURAL history. They did not seem to feel that it was appropriate to study religious history OUTSIDE of what they personally considered a sacred Cannon. I hope I can answer their concerns as well as your question.


REGARDING RECORDS I AM LOOKING FOR :

As I read the historical traditions of Abrahams youth whether sourced from of Islamic, Christian, or from Jewish tradition; I find similar and repeating patterns. As they are becoming “tutored” by God to act in their capacities, Prophets often seem to ask the same difficult questions as we do. What is the purpose of Creation? Why is there seemingly “random evil”. Why does God tolerate Lucifer and how did Lucifer become Satan and a determined enemy to God?

I find that the Prophets not only asked similar questions that plague modern agnostics, but they had the faith to have answers given them. The difficulty is that not all of the history I am looking for are not found in the modern versions of our OT, N.T., Quran, Book of Mormon, etc.


IF I USE THE OLD TESTAMENT AS SOURCE FOR ABRAHAMIC YOUTH TRADITIONS

In trying to learn specifically of Abraham’s youth growing up surrounded by idolotry yet he still finds the trueGod. How much information can I find on his youth if I limit my search to the present day Old Testament?

I can use Genesis 10 only for faint whisps of background information to the specifics I want.
In vs 8 I can find that “Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth..(KJV)” But it tells me nothing of Nimrod’s doings concerning with the young Abraham. Such history is not found in the Old Testament.

I can use Genesis 11 but how much does that help?
I am told abraham’s father’s name in vs 26; his brother’s names in vs 27 and I know that his brother Haran died in his native land and that it was in Ur (fire) of the Chaldees. But this record doesn’t tell me anything about Abraham’s youth; doesn’t tell me if Abraham had a role in Haran’s death; what that role might have been; if the brothers got along or fought, etc. I cannot tell how Abraham came to discover that the idol worship he grew up with was erroneous, nor how he acted when he found the error, nor how he found the true God. I simply cannot learn Abrahamic youth traditions from this limited data.


IF I USE THE QURAN AS A SOURCE FOR ABRAHAMIC YOUTH TRADITIONS (EXCLUDING the ahadith - some are discussed later..)

Though the Quran references quite a bit more tradition of Abraham's youth than the Old Testament, Still it is also INSUFFICIENT to learn complete details of Abraham's youth. There are many references in the Quran that are not found in the Jewish Old Testament, but these are fairly fragmented and are often only references to other, more complete historical accounts and not a complete and coherent account. If one does not already know the underlying stories, one cannot understand some of the vague references the Quran makes.

For example, Sura 2 records Abrahams dispute with Nimrud (sic) (Nimrod in "english"). However, the Quran does NOT make clear WHO Abraham is disputing with (...nimrod). One must know other historical records to know what is going on in this reference. Likewise, many of the references to stories of Abraham growing up in an idol-worshipping millieau are NOT understandable without further records.

Out of the hundreds of Abrahamic histories involving his youth in the idol-worshiping millieu; his growing discovery of the "defect" of idol worship; and his discovery of the true God, I would like to narrow the focus to references to Abraham's discovery that Idol worship is incorrect; how he treats the idols and the consequences, and his discovery of the true God. Perhaps first, we could focus on his discovery of the errors of the idol worshiping religion of his "fathers” and his disdain for their idols. (later discussing his destruction of idols, his test in the “Ur” or “Fire” of the Chaldeans, etc.


OTHER QURANIC REFERENCES to Abraham’s discovery of the nature of and disdain for; idol worship:

1) Surah 6: 74: Talking to his Father, Abraham asks:
Quote:

"Takest thou idols for gods? For I see that thee and thy kinsfolk are in clear error. 75. And thus showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth so he might be among those having certitude.

(In Sales translation, vs 75 reads
Quote:

“That is, we gave him a right apprehension of the government of the world, and of the heavenly bodies, that he might know them all to be ruled by God”.

This again, is a sideways reference to the various "Ascension of" and "Apochalypse of Abraham" type of histories, where God gives Abrahams a revelation and vision of the various worlds and other creations of God. The Quran does NOT tell us if abraham was given this revelation as a youth or as an aged man.


2) Surah 19:42 "[Abraham is speaking] Quote:

"...O father, why worshipest thou that which does not hear and does not see and does no do anything for thee? 42....truly there has come to me knowledge that thou hast not received, so follow me. I shall guide thee [in] a straight path....46 He [Terah] said, "Dost thou detest my gods, Abraham? If thou ceasest not, I shall stone thee. Keep away from me for a long while.

Many Abrahamic histories contain this thematic criticism of Idols. That is, that they do not seem to “do” anything, nor have any power of their own. Earlier histories contain the multiple experiences he has with idols (they fall into fires and cannot protect themselves from thieves; or from fire; or from water; or from desecration, etc). These experiences contribute to his rejection of them.


3) Surah 21:52
Quote:

52...He said to his father and his people, "What are these images to which ye are devoted?" 53 They said, "We found our fathers worshiping them." 54. He said, "Then ye and your fathers have been in manifest error."

(This sura continues through the destruction of the Idols that gets Abraham in trouble with Nimrod - but this is tangential to the current interest).

The later histories repeat the theme that the people are simply following traditions in their idol worship rather than have true conviction that the idols are actually Gods (with some exceptions). In several Abraham histories, Abraham destroys and desecrates such idols and this is the very thing that causes him to be cast into the fire of Ur by Nimrod (again, this is tangential - I relate it so that you understand that I am taking specific bits of history (i.e. his EARLY YOUTH histories) out of a much larger volume of histories.


4) Surah 26: 70
Quote:

[Abraham]...said to his father and his people, “what do ye worship?*” 71. They said, “We worship idols and persevere in dovotion thereto.” 72. He said, “Do they hear you when ye call, 73. or do you good or harm?” 74. They said “No, we found our fathers did so.” 75. He said, “Do ye then see what ye have been worshiping, 76. ye and your earliest fathers?” 77. For they are hostile to me ....

* the question is repeated in surah 37 - I won’t repeat it, but again, the theme is that these Gods have no power to do anything, they cannot even relate to man, nor does man have a true “relationship” with them.


5) Surah 87: makes reference to “other records” when it says
Quote:

vs 19: “Verily this is written in the ancient books, the books of Abraham and Moses” (Sales)

or

Quote:

“This is found on the first leaves [i.e. earlier books], 20: The leaves of Abraham and Moses." (Tvedtnes)

- I mention this verse as a repeated claim that these stories often have similar sources.

The point I hope to have made so far is that NEITHER the Quran or the Old Testament have much information regarding early Abrahamic traditions. (Though the Muslim record includes more from his youth)

What I will do now is to offer some of these histories from extra-scriptural traditions from Islamic; Jewish; andChristian sources and show you what sort of information I am looking for.


FIRST: REGARDING THE MILIEU OF IDOL WORSHIP ABRAHAM IS BORN INTO:
I will temporarily skip the circumstances of Abraham’s birth; the necessity of hiding in a cave for a time and his association with Noah’s family (though I’ll refer to them when important), I’d like to focus first on the idol-worshiping society into which Abraham is born.

 

[Clear]

Old Testament records are still insufficient: - Old Testament scriptures do not give me much detail regarding Abraham’s family and their association with Idol worship. I can look up a later “reference” to this, but it doesn’t tell me much detail:

Quote:

Joshua 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

This little bit of information glosses over much of what is important. Terah is not merely serving other Gods, but he has a deep financial and political interest in their worship. This is important to Abraham’s upbringing and to the various Abrahamic youth traditions, yet I cannot glean this information from the Old Testament Jewish records.

Perhaps I can first offer some history that simply describes the theme of Abraham being born into the idol-worshiping society and then compare his youth histories;

Abraham is born into an Idol-worshiping society : you will find that the traditions support Terah not only as a “worshiper” of idols, but as a “manufacturer’ of idols. He has a deep financial interest in selling these idols to others. He also holds an important position to the king (who has his own image that he wishes to be considered a god among the other idols).

Thus the political stakes for him are high if idol-worship is threatened. At some level, his life can be threatened by an out-of-control Son Abraham wanting to go against the Kings entrenched religious practice of idol worship.... Such consideration are why the simple description of Joshua 24:2 does not do the situation justice. There are many deeper levels to the story.



CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS : I included the name of the record in the paragraph with the quotes from it. These are snippets and references, and I would encourage reading the records themselves.

Clement points out that
Quote:

Abraham “was [still] in ignorance” of the true nature of religion before he found the truth. Like us, he was not born with knowledge. (recognitions ch 33)

The 4th century ‘treasures” work hints at the earliest initiation of men in that region into idol worship. (The Book of the Cave of Treasures (Syriac 4th century a.d.) Folio 23b.&2)

The same story is told by Epiphanius that
Quote:

“from the time of Terah the father of Abraham, they also introduced the imposture of idolatry by way of the statuary.” (Extracts - Anacephaeosis 1, 3.3)

Mahbub of Menbidj (Agapius) extracts tell the same story as above.

The Book of the Rolls also confirms this tradition and it’s association with Terah’s generation “”
Quote:

In the third year of he life of Nahor, God looked up through His remembrance at his creatures, and they were worshipping idols...” (Folio 119b)

The Conflict of Adam and Eve tells how Abraham was respectful to his father (generally) and
Quote:

“paid him all due honour, and did not aggrieve him about his being a maker of idols., For Abraham his son, was a righteous man, and could not bear idols, but he paid him all due respect a being his father...” (4 Adam and Eve, chapter 1, vs 2&3)

The Byzantine scholar George Syncellus (palestine approx 800 a.d.) Also writes in the Chonographia that
Quote:

“Terah being an idol worship and probably not going with Abraham...) (1:176)

Such stories are also confirmed in the syrian Anonymous Christian Chronicle’ of 819 a.d. , it is pointed out among the records that Terah’s “worship” of idols is motivated less by his conviction than by other reasons.

After Abraham asks
Quote:

“What use of help is there in those idols you worship? They are such a great service of senselessness and deception to the heart. They are the work of hands and there is no spirit in them......”

Terah admits :
Quote:

“I know that too my son. But what am I to do, for all the people have appointed me to minister for them in their presence. And if I speak to them, they will kill me, because their souls are pledged to idolatry. But be silent, my son, lest they murder you....”

(Which is what the later history shows they attempt) (this is found in paragraph 27 but it’s not numbered, you’ll have to count...) Such stories are helpful to describe the milieu and attitudes and intractable nature of idol worship that Abraham was born into. But I am getting ahead with Abraham’s attitude, back to the milieu...

George Hamartolos (Earlier than 842 a.d ) also confirms that
Quote:

“..Terah acted in rivalry with God because, though his own making of statues, he fashioned idols...and he was imitated by his own children..”

(but NOT Abraham..)

The Armenian paraphrase of Genesis also includes the complaint against men that
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“And in his day all the earth was worshipping idols”

(after Genesis 11:25) and after Genesis 11:30 it continues
Quote:

“And at that time men did not know God,for they were worshippers of idols–some of the air and others of the water...)”

At this point, I’d like to switch gears and try to show what the islamic records add to the Jewish/Christian records/traditions.

I feel as though this “survey” of bits and pieces of larger records is like a stone skipping across a large body of recorded history. The only way it can fully immerse itself deeply into such knowledge is to slow down (which I cannot do at this point). I will remind you that the simple verses I quote are from great histories and books that deserve much greater study for any serious student.



THE THEME OF ABRAHAM’S DISILLUSIONMENT WITH IDOL-WORSHIP AND HIS GRADUAL DISCOVERY OF THE TRUE GOD USING ONLY MUSLIM RECORDS

I will skip the history of how Abraham was hidden in a cave from infancy due to Nimrod’s ordering of the killing of children his age but will refer to some of Abraham’s experiences from the cave.


Abraham’s early considerations and questions display a maturing desire to know what God might be like. The following are two OFTEN repeated stories in ISHAQ IBN BIHR (d 821 a.d) that occur prior to Abraham’s great revelation of the heavens. These take place at the cave of his youth.


Quote:

It is said, when the night covered [Ibrahim] and Venus ascended, ...He could no see a brighter star than it. He said, “O mother, is this my Lord/” She silenced him. ....
When it [Venus] set, he said, ‘I do not like those who set. Because it set, this shows that there is a God above it who controls it in accordance with His command.” When it was later in the evening, the moon ascended. [Ibrahim] watched it outside shining its light. He said, ‘O mother, this is brighter! This is my Lord!” He was still watching it when it set, ... he said, ‘Unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.’

(317)


Quote:

‘The stars and [God’s] power in them were seen by [Ibramim]. -This is before he had been shown the kingdom of he heavens. They said that when the night covered Ibrahim, he said one day, “O mother! Who created you?’ She said, “My father.” He asked, “Who created me?” She said, “Your father.” He said, “Who created my father?” She said, “The king.” He asked, “Who created the king?” She exclaimed, “Be silent, my son!” [Ibrahim] asked, “Who is more admirable, I or my father?” She said, “You are.” He said, “Which is more excellent, the face of my father or the king?” She said, “Your father.” He said, “O mother, if the king were able to create a man, why did he create a man that is better than him?” folio 164B (316)

When I say “Oft repeated”, there are versions of Abraham’s consideration of the stars/moon/and sun by ISHAQ IBN BIHR, by AL-YA’QUBI; by al-tabari; by AL - MAS’UDI, by AL-NISABURI by; IBN AL-ATHIR; by Ka’B AL-AHBAR: and by AL-RABGHUZI to name a few (there are more)

The deep questioning of Abraham regarding the “state religion” has deeper connotations for his Family. Terah is an idol maker, and official in the government whose King demands obedience to this religion which also demands worshiping the king as a God.

AL - MAS’UDI (d. 956 a.d.) Hints at the danger in this line of questioning: After relating
the star/moon/sun story he also has Abraham asking his mother :
Quote:

“who is my Lord?.” She said, “I am.” He said, “But who is your Lord?” She replied, “Your father.” He said, “But who is the Lord of my father?” She answered, “Nimrudh is his Lord.” He asked, “But who is the Lord of Nimrudh?” She said to him, “Be silent!” So [Ibrahim] was silent. Then she returned to her husband. She said, “I saw the boy who speaks of changing the religion of the people of the land, and he is your son.” Then she informed him of what [Ibrahim] had told her.352

What Al-Mas’udi implys, AL-RABGHUZI explains. In his history, after the father hears of Abraham asking “ “who is the God of Nimrod” “His Father said:
Quote:[quote“Take him away from here and leave him in the same mountains, lest he should bring clamity upon us.” His mother brought him to the same cave and left him there.”
(435) Terah is starting to see his fate tied to his son’s actions should the King hear of Abraham challenging his religion. The son Abraham may prove a mortal danger to this father.[/quote]

(A later history relates the result of Abrahams’ rebellion against the idol-worshiping religion

Quote:

“Nimrud decided that abraham’s presence would be a menace to his throne, since Abraham challenged the power of the people’s gods, and the king wanted to be one of the peoples gods. If there is only one God, then the kings owe their power to him, and have to worship him together with the people.

- but again, I am getting ahead of myself...

 

[Clear]

The theme of Abraham seeking revelation from the true God is also an oft repeated theme. And one that he uses as proof that the idols are not the real God, for the “real” God will listen to what we pray for, the idols do not hear, the idols cannot talk or communicate to anyone yet the true God will communicate to anyone who seeks him.. Thus, AL-YA’QUBI’s history (a.d. 897) again quotes Abraham’s important observation that “Unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.” before he continues the story of Abraham’s consideration of the heavenly orbs:

Quote:

“the daylight approached, the sun arose. So he said, “This is my Lord; this is lighter, brighter!” When the sun set he said, “The sun set, but my Lord does not set!”...
When [Ibrahim] became older, he began to be astonished, seeing his people worshiping idols. He asked, “You worship what you have made?” They said, “Your father taught us this.” He said, “Indeed, my father is among those who strayed.’ (330)

Gradually, Abraham is confirmed in the principles he is taught and in AL TABARI’s (840-923 a.d.) Version of this story, after Abraham percieves that the sun is not Lord, he say’s
Quote:

“O my people! I am free from all the things which ye associate (with him). I have turned my faced toward Him that created the heavens and the earth, as one upright by nature; I am not an idolotor. (336)

At some point, God answers Abraham’s prayer and sends Jibril [Gabriel] to him, and he [the angel] teaches Abraham religion. It’s difficult to tell how much religion he learns from Gabriel and how much influence Noah’s family have on him since Abraham has contact with both during his early years. Despite Abraham’s growing intense dislike for idols, he stil cannot escape their influence. Abraham is coerced by his Father to assist in the family business of selling Idols.

Al-Kisa’i ( oldest manuscript a.d.1220) tells of the pressure Abraham was under.
Terah says:
Quote:

“My son, since you are in my debt, I want you to vend idols as your brother does.” “But how can I sell what I despise?” asked Abraham. Nonetheless he was given a large and small idol to sell. He would go out with two boys to carry the idols and would say, “Who will buy that which neither harms nor benefits?” and no one would take them from him.

Then he would immerse the idols in water and say, “Drink!” and pull the ropes attached to their legs to draw them out of the water. The people would stare, but no one dared to say anything to him.”....
“When an old man came asking him to sell one of the idols to him, Abraham said, “Old man, I have been sitting here scoffing at them. They are not to be worshipped.”...

So the old man bought the idol from his brother.

Quote:

“Then an old woman came to Abraham and asked him to sell her an idol. He tool out the two idols for her and said, “Take the big one. There is more of it for firewood and kindling.”...

another story has Abraham saying to a customer:

Quote:

“I see no use either in the large or the small [idol], nor how they can help either themselves or others. And the large idol that you bought yesterday from my brother”, asked Abraham, “what has happened to it?” “Thieves came during the night and stole it from me while I was in the bath.” ”If so,” Abraham told her, “why do you serve an idol that doesn’t know how to save itself from the hand of thieves and that would know less how to save others from their evil? Go away, old fool! How can you maintain that the idol that you serve is a god? ...”

The disdain is equal in all the similar histories. Abraham is purposefully a poor salesman, and worse that this, he will ultimately become the enemy of the popular, state-supported religion and somewhat of an enemy to his father.

What Jewish records seem (to me) to add more than the early Islamic records is a superior description of various experiences of Abraham where he see inconsistencies in Idol worship.

Perhaps I can now interject a few Jewish recorded traditions that I am talking about and then later will continue with another sampling of records concerning specifically with his dealings with Idols AFTER he learned the vanity of their worship, dealings which will ultimately place him in the Fire (UR) of the Chaldeans.

Abraham relates his early experiences which reveal the true nature of idols; that they are man-made objects rather than objects that make-man. He sees them as objects that man is "LORD OF", rather than objects man is "SUBJECT TO".

One early story is in the Jewish "Apocalypse of Abraham" (1st - 2nd century a.d.). Abraham is in the Temple where the idols are and says

Quote:

....having entered their temple for the service, I found a god names Marumath, carved from stone, fallen at the feet of the iron god Nakhin..."

It is too heavy to upright alone so Abrahams father helps.

Quote:

..."And when we both lifted it to put it in it's place, its head fell off, even while I was holding it by its head..." The father says Bring me the axes and chisels from the house." And I brought them to him from the house.. And he cut another Marumath from another stone, without a head, and he smaches the head that had fallen off Marumath and the rest of Marumath."
seeing "men making gods" exposes the illogic of assuming these "gods made men". Such lessons were not lost to the observant Abraham.

In chapt 2 of this Jewish record, he was sent to sell five "Gods" his father had made. While speaking to Syrian Merchants, his *** took fright and 3 of the idols fell and broke.

Quote:

"...Why did you not tell us that you had gods? We would have bought them before the *** heard the camel's voice" (which is what scared the ***... - ed) give us at least the gods that remain and we will give you a suitable price." I considered it in my heart. And they paid both for the smashed gods and the gods which remained. For I had been grieving in my heart how I would bring payment to my father.

I threw the three broken (gods) into the water of the river Gur, which was in this place. And they sank into the depths of the river... As I was still walking on the road, my heart was disturbed and my mind distracted. I said in my heart, "What is this inequality of actiity which my father is doing? Is it not he rather who is god for his gods, because they come into being from his sculpting, his planning, and his skill? They ought to honor my father because they are his work.

What is this food of my father in his works? Behold, Marumath fell and could not stand up...and his head fell off of him. Ahd he put it on another stone of another god, which he had made without a head....And I said to my heart, "If it is so, how then can my father's god Marumath, which has the head of another stone and which is made from another stone, save a man, or hear a man's prayer or give him any gift?"

After returning home and giving his father the money made, he Abraham observes:

Quote:

"Listen, father Terah! The gods are blessed in you, because you are a god for them, because you made them, for their blessing is their perdition and their power is vain. They did not help themselves; how then can they help you or bless me?"

Initially, it is Abraham's logical 0bservations that overcomes initial religious inertia to belief in his father's Gods. As Abrahams' logic improves, the illogic of others appears worse. In the same record (A of A), the story is related of Abraham gathering wood chips for a fire and he

Quote:

"found among them a small god which would fit...in my left hand. And on it's forehead was written: god Barisat.

And it came to pass when I put the cips on the fire in order to prepare the food for my fahter, and going out to inquire about the food, I put Barisat near the enkindling fire, saying to him threateningly, "Barisat, watch that the fire does not go out before I come back! If the fire goes out, blow on it so it flares up." I went out and I made my counsel. When I returned, I found Barisat fallen on his back, his feet enveloped by fire and burning fiercely. And it came to pass when I saw it, I laughted (and) said to myself, "Barisat, truly you know how to light a fire and cook food!".

And it came to pass while saying this in mylaughter, I saw (that) he burned up slowly from the fire and became ashes. I carried the food to my father to eat....And I said to him, "Father Terah, do not bless Marumath your god, do not praise him! Praise rather Barisat, your god, because, as though loving you, he threw himself into the fire in order to cook your food." And he said to me, "Then where is he now?" And I said, "He has burned in the fierceness of the fire and become dust." And he said, "Great is the power of Barisat! I will make another today, and tomorrow he wil lprepare my food."

When I, Abraham, heard words like this from my father, I laughed in my mind, and I groaned in the bitterness and anger of my soul. I said, "How then is a figment of a body made by him (Terah) an aid for my father? Or can he have subordinated (his) body to his soul, his soul to a spirit, and the spirit to stupidity and ignorance?" And I said, "It is only proper to endure evil that I may throw my mind to purity and I will expose my thoughts clearly to him."

Terah displays the same folly in his orthodoxy that we often do in ours. We often subject data to our prior conclusions (bias) rather than subject our conclusions to the data. (beliefs determine data, rather than data, determining belief).

If I can simiply skip ahead to a later time in Abraham's life, I would say there are many such stories sampled throughout the ancient historic literature which chronicle the changes taking place in the young Abraham.

 

[Clear]

As Abraham matures in his growing knowledge of principles of true religion, his commitment and faith in the true God increases. As this happens, his relationship with the true God also matures and he receives many revelations (which I will simply lump into the apocalypse / ascension of Abraham records - that is his vision of the world and heavens given him by God)

Returning to the Islamic literature and refering to the visions of Abraham, Ishaq Ibn Bishr quotes the Quranic verse "
Quote:

So also did show [Ibrahim] the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might have certitude. the night covered him", and so forth. "The stars and [God's] power in them were seen by [Ibrahim]. This is before he had been shows the kingdom".
(folio 164B)

Such traditions found their ways into Jewish worship. For example, In the Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers one says
Quote:

are the one who delivered Abraham from ancestral godlessness, and appointed him heir of the world, and showed to him your Christ."

Such traditions were undergirded by Jewish recorded tradition such as when Philo says
Quote:

"For it is said in the scriptures that the very moment that the wise man quitted his abode, "God appeared unto Abraham," to whom, therefore, it is plain that he was not visible before, when he was adhering to the studies of the Chaldeans.."
(Philo - De Abrahamo)

The wonderful, wonderful Jewish "Apocalypse of Abraham" relates Abraham's vision as follows:
Quote:

"...the voice of the Mighty One came down from the heavens in a stream of fire, saying and calling, "Abraham, Abraham!" An I said, "Here I am." And he said "You are searching for the God of gods, the Creator, in the understanding of your heart. I am he..."

... and later, when in full vision (chapt 19) the creator tells Abraham :
Quote:

"Look at the expanses which are under the firmament to which you have now been directed and see that on no single expanse is there any other but the one whom you have searched for or who has loved you." And while he was still speaking.....the heavens opened and I saw on the seventh firmament upon which I stood..."

Abraham then sees the seventh firmament, and the sixth; the fifth, etc. and he describes the creation:
Quote:

I saw there, on the fifth (firmament) , hosts of stars, and the orders they were commanded to carry out, and the elements of earth obeying them... and he said to me, "Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old on this expanse, (and) the creatures which are in it and the age prepared after it."

And I looked beneath the firmament at my feet and I saw the likeless of heaven and the things that were therein. And (I saw) there the earth and it's fruit, and its moving things and its things that had souls, and its host of men and the impiety of their souls and their justification, and their pursuit of the works and the abyss and its torments, and its lower depths and (the) perdition in it." ch 21

IN chapt 22 Abraham is shows much of the conditions prior to the earth's creation and asks about those spirits he sees who are not yet born:
Quote:

"..What is this picture of creation?" - and the Creator explains - Whatever I had decreed was to exist had already been outlined in this and all the previously created (things) you have seen stood before me". And I said, "O sovereign, mighty and eternal! Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?"

And he said to me, "These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and after you some (who have been) prepared for judgment and order, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age. Those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with Azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people."

Such descriptions (Jewish in this example) lie behind the Quranic quote
Quote:

"And thus [ I ] showed to Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and of ther earth so that he might be one of those who are firmly convinced."

, and truly convinced Abraham does become.

Just as Abraham saw in his vision, those pre-earth spirits who were "set apart" for the creator and were worthy to be called "his people" , Abraham was one of those who was also worthy, thus the Quran points out:
Quote:

"We bestowed aforetime / On Abraham his rectitude / Of conduct, and well were We / Acquainted with him.", so Ibn Kathir relates regarding Abrahams later debates with his father that Then Ibrahim spoke to him, showing that God had given him guidance and beneficial knowledge even though he was younger in age than his father..."

The Muslim historian Al-Rabghuzi relates Abrahams dispute with Terah and claim to knowledge thusly:
Quote:

"...His father rebuked him. Abraham said to his father: "Why do you worship this thing which cannot see and cannot hear?" And again he said: "Oh father, knowledge thereof was granted to me, not to you. Listen to what I say; I will guide you on the right road." In His words, He is exalted: "Father, the truth has been revealed to me about many mysteries: therefore follow me, that I may guide you along an even path."

The Anonymous Christian Chronicle (a.d. 819 -syriac) has Abraham ask at one point:
Quote:

What use of help is there in those idols which you worship" They are such a great service of senselessness and deception to the heart. They are the work of hands, and there is no spirit in them. Worship the God of heaven, who makes the rain fall and the dew and does whatever he wills in heaven and in earth."

And Terah replies:
Quote:

"I know that too, my son. but what am I to do, for all the people have appointed me to minister for them in their presence. And if I speak to them, the will kill me, because their souls are pledged to idolatry. but be silent, my son, lest they murder you."

1) ABRAHAM DESTROYING THE IDOLS

Abrahams disdain for idols culminates in a life-threatening clash with the entrenched idolotry. Wonderful versions of Abraham and the destruction of idols are found in many islamic histories such as: Ishaq ibn Bishr (d. a.d. 821), Al-Tha'labi, Al-Tarafi, Al-Kisa'i, Al-Zamakshari, etc, etc. For example:

Quote:

Ibrahim then returned from the road to the House of the Gods [al-Alaha]. within this house was a great hallway, and the front part of the door of the hallway had a great idol that was next to a smaller idol, and there were idols lined up side by side to the first two, each one of which was next to a smaller idol, and thus was the door of the hallway. When the people produced food, they placed it in the presence of these gods. They would say, "When it is time for our return, the gods will have blessed our food for our eating."

When Ibrahim looked at the idols and the food they had, he said to these idols by way of ridicule, "Why don't you eat?" When they did not answer, [Ibrahim] said, "why don't you speak?" So he quickly hit them with the right hand and began shattering them with an ax in his hand until only the largest remained. He put the ax on it and left." (Al-Tha'labi d a.d. 1036)

Thus the Quran says

""So he broke them into fragments, all but a great one they had, for haply they would return to it." (Quran 21:58).

In the same way that Tha'labi’s story endows greater sense to a Quranic verse, more complete histories endow greater understanding to Biblical references such as Abraham having come from the "Ur of the Chaldeans".

 

[Clear]

2) THE PEOPLES ANGER AT THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR IDOLS

Al Tarafi’s version tells the same story and continues with Abraham’s questioning by the people:

Quote:

“... when the people came back to get the food, they saw the gods and said, ‘Who has done this to our gods. Assuredly it must be an impious man!’ Some of the weak ones who had remained behind, who had heard his oath, said,

‘We have heard a young man who spoke evil of them: they call him Abraham.’....’Is it you that have done this to our gods, O Abraham/’ ‘No,’ he responded, ‘ the one who has done this is he who is the greatest of them. Ask him therefore, if these idols can speak!’...

After their debates (in which they refuse to admit the very thing that they know is true - that idols are not intelligent, nor gods), the history continues:

Quote:

“But then they again fell into the ancient error, even that on which Abraham had confuted them, when he had contested against them until the arguments against them had become clear....[they say] ‘You know weell that they do not speak!’ Thus they admitted the inability of that which they worshiped to speak. ...and they cried, ‘Burn him, and thus appease your gods, if you want to do something.’ “

Ibn Ishaq’s (a.d. 704-767) history offer’s an efficient summation to Abraham’s story so far. Abraham's father worshiped and sold idols, how abraham reacted, his discovery of God and his vision, the attention of nimrod and Abrahams ultimate insult of destroying idols before being thrown into the fire. His history says:


Quote:

Now Azar used to make the idols his people would worship. then he would give them to Abraham to sell, and Abraham, would go out with them and, according to what they assert, would say to him who bought one that it would not hurt him or help him. So no one would buy from him. When this activity proved unprofitable to him, he went to the river with the idols and immersed their heads in it. He said, Drink, mocking his people and their error so that his shaming them and mocking them spread among his people the rest of the people of his city until it reached Nimrod, the King.

When it became clear to Abraham that he should declare his break with his people openly and declare his situation with God and his prayers to Him, he saw a vision in the stars...

When they left him, he went to the idols which they worshiped instead of God and brought food to them. Then he said, reviling them for their condition and mocking them, "Do you not eat? What is the matter with you that you do not speak?" Then he came up to them, as God said, striking them with his right hand, and began breaking them with an ax which was in his hand until only the largest idol remained. Then he fastened the ax to it's hand and left.

When brought before the people they said, "Did you do this to our gods, Abraham? He said, Nay, their chief did this; so ask them, if they can speak." He became angry that you worship these small ones along with him. He is bigger than they; so he shattered them.

....Then, knowing that the idols neither harmed nor helped and could not strike, they said, "You know that these do not speak," that is, they do not talk; so tell us who did this with them........At that, when the proof came to them by their words, You know that these do not speak, Abraham said, "Do you worship what will not help you or harm you instead of God? Fie on you and what you worship instead of God. Do you not have any sense?"

3) ABRAHAM’S DISPUTE WITH NIMROD (all versions predictably, end with Nimrod’s anger and Abraham’s punishment.

Abraham is brought before king Nimrod, they have a similar ugly dispute. The entire story is given in the muslim tradition of this argument and the end result is that

Quote:

“... Abraham preached to the king and his court about the power of the One God, but they would not listen. Namrud (sic) decided that Abraham’s presence would be a menace to his throne, since Abraham challenged the power of hte people’s gods, and the king wanted to be one of the people’s gods. If there is only one God, then the kings owe their power to him, and have to worship him together with the people....”

As punishment Nimrod orders a large pile of firewood to be made; set on fire; and Abraham forced into the fire (Ur) of the Chaldeans.


4) ABRAHAM SAVED FROM THE FIRE (UR) OF CHALDEANS

The many historical versions have similar elements:

Al-Nisaburi has Abraham brought out of the prison, placed in the fire and

Quote:

“...When he was in the securely in the midst of the fire, the King, may He be exalted, made the fire cool for him. .....”

While in the fire, Abraham sits on a couch with a visible pool of water before him. Nimrods counselors are astonished. Rawandi (a.d. 1177) relates the story and discussed how they ventured to get Abraham into the fire as they could not approach it for the heat. Both Al-Nisaburi and Ibn al-Athir place a man in the fire with Abraham.

Quote:

“Nimrud remained for a few days not doubting that the fire had consumed Ibrahim. So he looked as if he watched the fire while it was burning furiously, and Ibrahim was sitting next to a man in his likeness....”

CHRISTIAN RECORDS REGARDING ABRAHAM IN THE FIRE

The Christian Jerome (d 420) relates the story
Quote:

"...wherein Abraham was sent to the fire because he did not want to worship the fire that the Chaldeans worshiped, and being rescured by the help of God, escaped the fire of idolatry."

This premise is repeated in the Commentarium in Genesim in the Patrologia Latina, also by the venerable Bede (d a.d. 735), Bede also includes Abrahams protection by God. Alcun (d. a.d. 804) (also P.Lat), repeats Jerome's quote "that the tradition of the Hebrews is true that Thare (sic) and his sons came out of the fire of the Chaldeans and that Abraham,

While the Islamic historians are fairly unified, the Christians occasionally complain regarding other histories. For example: Jerome, in his notes refers to P R. Nathan and P. R. Eliezer (in Mahase Aboth) and the differing ORDER of Abraham's trials in the Jewish records. The trials themselves are fairly consistent.

Jerome complains about Maimonides;and notes the Rabbi doesn't mention Abraham's deliverance from the fire "because it wasn't included in scripture". He observed Abraham "plotted" a "revolt" and preached the theme of "one" God over all (vs idol "gods") (Josephus mentions this in Antiquities 1.7). Jerome complains the Eusthathius (of antioch) and Georgius Syncellus (and others), "exagerate on their histories.

In trying to explain why the scripture reads the way it does, instead of it's correct form, the Christian Commentarium in Genesim (from Pat Latina - Migne) observes that "...Instead of that which we say, "in the land of his nativity," in Hebrew [the passage] is "in Hur Chesdim," that is, "in the fire of the Chaldeans." For the Hebrews pass on the tradition from this incident, this sort of story: That Abraham was sent to the fire because he did not want to worship the fire and ...being rescued by the help of God, escaped the fire of idolatry".

The venerable Bede (e. a.d. 735) repeats the now-common theme that

Quote:

"...among the Hebrews, truly, Ur means fire. They tell that he would have been consumed in the fire of the Chaldeans because it seemed that when Abraham, knowing the true God more than his brother, he refused to worship the fire, which they worship; and therefore both were cast into the fire by the Chaldeans,..."

He retells the same principle in Quaestiones super Genesim.

Alcun (e. a.d. 804) (quoting Jerome) relates the same story where the brothers were thrown into the fire and Abraham is saved.

In Exposito super septem visiones libri apocalypsis (if Ambrose, then pre a.d. 397, even to a.d. 774 if not) - is in P.Logia Latina

Quote:

"..as gold is known to be tried in the furnace: so Abraham, who was brought out of the fire of the Chaldees..."

The Christian Chronicle (syriac a.d.819) repeats the same theme
Quote:

"...And Nemrod (sic) threw Abraham into a fiery furnace because he did not approve the worship of idols, but he flame of the furnace was changed into pleasant dew..."

The miraculous comfort in this description of the "pleasant dew" feels more like the Islamic than Jewish OR Christian versions which are often less elaborate.

The same chronicle reports Abraham's brother Haran, dying in the temple fire, rather then in Nimrod's fire (as does G. hamartolos (ca a.d. 842)

Rabanus Maurus (d ca a.d. 856) refers to Abrahams life computed
Quote:

"...from when he was rescued from the fire of the Chaldeans into the which was cast to burn because he did not want to worship the fire...."

 

[Clear]

Like Islamic records, there are many christian versions of Abraham and the Fire: Freculphus Loxoviensis (ca a.d. 851) repeats a similar description, so also the Glossa Ordinaria (d ca a.d. 849), so does Angelomus Luxoviensis (ca a.d. 855), so does Symeon Logothetes (mid 10th century) and adds details of Sarah, Michael the Syrian (d a.d. 1199) repeats the theme of burning and Haron (sic) dying in the temple fire set by Abraham, the details of which are repeated by Georgius Cedrenus (12th century), so does Bar Hebraeus (d a.d. 1286) (sets Abraham at 60 y/o upon fleeing), the christian Ethiopic story of Joseph also relates the story of "...the Lord who saved your servant Abraham, from Nimrod's fire and judgment."..., etc. etc. etc.

The Christian Catena Severi (ca a.d. 861) adds details in his telling of the story:
Quote:

"...Abraham took fire in his zeal and burnt that famous temple of Qainan, the graven image of the Chaldeans...(tells of Haran dying in this fire then continues)....When the Chaldeans realized what Abraham had done, they were compelling Terah to hand over his son Abraham to them to [put to] death. He relates that "...he began his flight then with all his household, and they left Ur of the Chaldeans..."

Rupertus Tuitensis (ca a.d. 1129) in De Trinitate ed operibus ejus (42:5-2) speaks "Concerning Abraham, who (as the majority assert) by the help of God was rescued from Ur of the Chaldeans, that is, from fire." Hugh of St. Victor (d a.d. 1142) tells the same story

Petrus Comestor (d a.d. 1178) tells the same story of Abraham and Aram (sic) being 'thrown into' the fire while Herveus Burgidolensis (fl. a.d. 1134) even elaborates in agreement with the "Islamic version" (using a catapult) of the burning of Abraham thusly:
Quote:

"...the Chaldeans catapuled Abraham and Aram into the fire, which in their language is called UR, ... Thus in the book of Ezra it is clearly said that the Lord freed Abraham "from the fire of the Chaldeans."

I hope that I’ve shown what sort of records I am looking for and the type of information that I’d like to look at. I do not care if the source is Jewish (the best source), Islamic (less accurate; often sourced from jewish sources, but still good); or Christian Sources (Like Islam, we christians still look to Jewish historical sources as the best).

I must apologize to any Muslim who reads these translations and feels that there are better versions.


It’s late and I’ll try to check tomorrow for punctuation and spelling errors...

Clear.

 

[Scott1]

Sorry if I missed references to these works, but have you ever read these:

Apocalypse of Abraham

Testament of Abraham

 

[Harmonious]

Wow, clear. You certainly have done your homework.

I will say that you refer a LOT to Jewish sources, but then list Christian ones, however.

I would suggest (but I know that there are no English editions) looking at Bere**** Rabbah. Many Jewish commentaries point to that to find stories of Abraham's youth.

The stories are there, absolutely.

The medieval Jewish commentator, Rashi, brings this bit out on Genesis 11:28.

And the Midrash Aggadah (Gen. Rabbah 38: 13) tells us that he [Haran] died on account of his father. For Terah complained about Abram his son before Nimrod for crushing his idols; so he [Nimrod] cast him [Abram] into a fiery furnace, and Haran sat and thought, “If Abram is victorious, I am on his side, and if Nimrod is victorious, I am on his side.” When Abram was saved, they said to Haran, “Whose side are you on?” Haran said to them,“I am on Abram’s side!” They cast him into the fiery furnace and he was burned. This is the meaning of אוּר כַּשְׂדִים the fire of the Chaldees.

Bere**** (Genesis) Rabbah would have MORE of these stories.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no reason to believe him historical. You can find historical fiction about almost anyone.

 

[Harmonious]

There is no reason to believe him historical. You can find historical fiction about almost anyone.

There is no reason to believe him fictional.

But you are free to believe so.

 

[Clear]

Scott 1

Sorry if I missed references to these works, but have you ever read these:

Apocalypse of Abraham
Testament of Abraham

Hi Scott; thank you for the recommendation and yes, I am familiar with these. Though I refered to one, both belong to the Abrahamic Ascension literature. Both have wonderful information regarding Abrahams life. Again, thanks Scott1 for the recommendation.

Clear



Hi Harmonious;

"I will say that you refer a LOT to Jewish sources, but then list Christian ones, however."

You are correct regarding my emphasis Harmonious. The prior complaint I received was from a Christian who did not understand why I was seeking Jewish records and worse yet, seemed a bit offended that I wanted to include Islamic traditions in my search. He simply did not understand the value of them and so part of my purpose was to show the value of Jewish and Islamic records. We are all in the greatest debt to the original record keepers.

thank you for your references also.

Clear

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no reason to believe him historical. You can find historical fiction about almost anyone.

There is no reason to believe him fictional.

There is every reason to presume him fictional. ...

After a century of exhausive investigation, all respectable archaeologists have given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob credible historical figures. Virtually the last archaeological word was written by me more than 20 years ago for a basic handbook of biblical studies, Israelite and Judean History. And, as we have seen, archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus has similarly been discarded as a fruitless pursuit. Indeed, the overwhelming archaeological evidence today of largely indigenous origins for early Israel leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness. A Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in southern Transjordan in the middle 13th century B.C., where many scholars think the biblical traditions concerning the god Yahweh arose. But archaeology can do nothing to confirm such a figure as a historical personage, much less prove that he was the founder of later Israelite religion. As for Leviticus and Numbers, these are clearly additions to the "pre-history" by very late Priestly editorial hands, preoccupied with notions of ritual purity, themes of the "promised land," and othe literary motifs that most modern readers will scarcely find edifying, much less historical.

< -- snip -- >​

Now let us turn to the biblical data. If we look at the biblical texts describing the origins of Israel, we see at once that the traditional account contained in Genesis through Joshua simple cannot be reconciled with the picture derived above from archaeological investigation. The whole "Exodus-Conquest" cycle of stories must now be set aside as largely mythical, but in the proper sense of the term "myth": perhaps "historical fiction."

- What Did the Biblical Writers Know and when Did They Know It?: What Archaeology Can Tell Us about the Reality of Ancient Israel

​

And, of course, you are free to believe what you wish.

 

[Yid613]

I would suggest (but I know that there are no English editions) looking at Bere**** Rabbah. Many Jewish commentaries point to that to find stories of Abraham's youth.

Midrash Rabbah and Midrash Tanchuma are available in English.

http://www.mysefer.com/default.asp

 

[Clear]

Yid613;

I sourced the Midrash Rabbah for Abrahamic youth traditions but have NOT studied any material from the Midrash Tanchuma.

I am grateful for your suggestions.

Clear

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To confuse midrash with history is more than sad.

 

[Yid613]

To confuse midrash with history is more than sad.

True the Midrash need not be taken literally, but to ignore the work of those closer to the event and who had better resources is just arrogant.

 

[Harmonious]

Midrash Rabbah and Midrash Tanchuma are available in English.

http://www.mysefer.com/default.asp

Cool!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

True the Midrash need not be taken literally, ...

Enough said.