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Featured A woman and child; truth via absence of evidence

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    The apparent condition of the child as described would indicate that it is likely in need of immediate attention. If there was no immediate threat, then talking to the child would be the first step to see if the child is responsive. However, given the presence of a weapon and a person in possession of it, the first step would be to eliminate that as a potential threat. Only after that can any further action reasonably be taken.

    Once while walking to class I noticed a man laying on the sidewalk as if he had fallen and passed out. One does not see adults laying immobile across a sidewalk impeding passage everyday. It is reasonable to assume an emergency situation given such scanty information until further information is determined. One thing that I immediately noticed and that raised anger in me was that people walking by were looking but making no effort to help. I decided I would find out if help was needed. When I got up to the man, I immediately saw the open manhole he was looking down. I could not see it from my initial perspective. The man and another down the manhole were working on repairs.
    People seem to find almost any reason to claim prayer was answered. I think @PureX gave the best answer to this.
    I am not sure I understand. Are you contrasting instinct with learned behavior to make a determination about the meaning people apply to conclude the existence of God?

    Personally, I like scenarios like yours to stimulate thinking, but I may be too dense to follow what you are trying to reveal.
     
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    It was not clear from the op that the child was living or already dead. Of course the welfare of the child would take precedence.
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Unknown.

    Which is no doubt why you posted this under "Religious Debates."

    See Wikipedia: Sagan Standard.
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Do you think so people can step back without their personal experience interpreting a scene that may or may not add up to what they are assuming?

    Backed up by personal experience and knowlege are good justifications but can they be trusted?

    Putting this in a god seance, can knowledge and prior experience be trusted in deciding that god is the cause of, say, creating the world when we were not there to see it?

    Context rather than details for a minute
     
  5. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Holding a gun in your house, usually isn't a common thing to do.
    When blood and guns are found in the same place at the same time, that indicates they are connected.

    My initial hypothesis would however depend on the rest of the circumstantial evidence:
    - is the woman crying / in shock / calm / apathic / ...?
    - are there signs of a struggle (broken glass, knocked down or broken furtniture, a forced door, broken windows,...)?
    - does the child have a gunshot wound?
    - ...

    Depending on the circumstances, I'ld suspect:
    - the woman of having killed the child (murder)
    - the woman of having tried to defend herself or the child from a violent third party no longer at the scene
    - the woman of having tried to defend hersef from the child who attacked her and shot him (self defense)
    - ... any other option which might be suggested by evidence

    More thorough examination of the evidence might / will add additional info. Like:
    - if child has gunshot wound, does it match the gun the woman is holding?
    - are there gunpowder traces on the woman's hands / cloths, indicating she fired it?
    - etc

    I guess I was a step ahead of you.
    One always has to first properly investigate the facts before drawing any conclusions.
    And even then, the conclusions are just mere attempts at explaining the data. One might still want to test the hypothesis in whatever ways possible.

    There is no absence of evidence, it seems. It's not like we have to make due with just an anecdote of this story, since you started with "you walk into a room...". Sounds like the room is filled with evidence. Then there's also the woman that can be interrogated. Next there might be traffic or security cams in the streets, maybe even dash cams, that will be able to unearth additional details of who did / did not enter / leave the house within reasonable timeframes.
     
  6. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    By association of the objects of "knife" and "blood".
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You're not the only one. It takes awhile. Thanks, though.

    Prayer is a good example.

    I go to the hospital and see my loved one dying. Both hospital and loved one dying are connected to each other. People go to the hospital when they are sick and can't help themselves to put it simply.

    So, if someone prays and their loved one gets better, they believe that it is the will of god. The hospital, loved one, and the latter being sick "and" getting better are linked that when someone prays about it it is also linked to the outcome of the prayer (the desire for it).

    What is the reasoning behind why someone would assume god answered the prayer just based on the situation-loved one dying, hospital, and getting better?

    Likewise,

    You have the woman/gun/blood (loved one dying) and the child/blood (hospital). If you put two and two together like above, of course our minds will think they have something to do with each other. So like prayer to the former, we may have means to investigate, call the police, so have you.

    In this case, what is the reasoning behind why someone would assume a murder took place to call the police just based on the situation when you weren't there to see it?

    I know we are going off our human instinct here, but I couldn't figure out another example that wouldn't cause too much distraction for the content of the scenario over the context.

    Maybe another way to put it is, what is a reasoning behind putting meaning between two synchronized events when one hasn't actually witness whether either event are connected to each other?
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It's not about the welfare of the child but when one goes into the house, sees the child and woman, why would they have an assumption something happened when they didn't see it happened?

    Of course we have human instinct and people will reply with the content of the scenario, but it's just asking you have two syncronized events, in prayer (for example) because the events are personal, when they are seen together they are assumed that it is god's answered prayer. Without this assumption based on observation (if this wasn't a justification), what is the reasoning behind seeing these seemingly connected events evidence of god answering prayer?

    There's many ways to ask this but I thought the child/woman scenario would be stronger but it went off like a loose cannon.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Sheesh. The saracsm.

    You have to synchronized events. In prayer, you feel god answered the events when they are too personal and they go together just well. Observation, personal experiences, pre-bias, and beliefs makes you assume god answer the prayers.

    My question is, without these things above, how would you know the two synchronized events are answers to prayers?

    There are many many ways to ask this question. But if you're going to be sarcastic about it, I let this go...
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Yeah. There are a lot of factors involved. I took them out since it's not about investigation and looking at facts, it's asking what was the reasoning behind thinking of X if you weren't there to see it.
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Sheesh. The disingenuousness.

    And here's the subtext. Now, about Sagan, ...
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Do you just do this with me or every other person is the victim?

    I know it's online and all so I guess that's an excuse, who knows; but, does everything has to be made into a sarcastic blend to it?
     
  13. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    I'ld guess that if you remove all the evidence, or the ability to investigate the evidence, all you are left with are "gut feelings" and "intuition".

    And very oftenly, those will lead you to a wrong conclusion.
     
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  14. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Obviously that would depend on ones concept of prayer. For me prayer is not petition but communion.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I think you're catholic, right?

    Yes. I can see the difference (being ex-catholic). I guess it would be more how you interpret how you experience god in the natural world. For example, even though you may not petitiion to god by prayer to ask god to take care of a dying loved one, there may still be a connection between the prayer and god that may assume to be healing (if the person got better) even though the actions and beliefs don't automatically assume so.
     
  16. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    My prayer would be for the person to know she/he is not alone but within God's presence, the He is with her/him. I am hesitant to pray for the healing of the body that calls for an intervention by God.
     
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  17. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I don't know, I don't know how to do that. I was faith driven for years. It was a gradual realization that there was something wrong with my view of the world. I couldn't trust what I had previously accepted as truth.
    I suspect succinct dialog only works in the movies. Where someone says exactly what the listener needs to trigger a realization to a broader understanding. Most times I can't even get folks to agree on basic terms.

    Certainly predisposed to supernatural explanations. We identify patterns really well but then fill in the gaps using imagination to try and make sense of the connections our mind tells us is there.
     
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