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Featured A woman and child; truth via absence of evidence

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    The woman is holding a gun, and there is blood. That is a done deal in my estimation. If nothing is amiss, then the police may surmise that, and everything is good/fine/whatever. I am not going to simply sit by and allow someone to wave a gun around in a room with a bloodied person, and there is absolutely no reason to. Get someone involved who will take a look at the situation and make a determination if there was mal-intent involved. I would see it as negligence on the part of the observer not to. Again... better safe than sorry. The kid may be hurt, and maybe swift action from someone who knows what they are doing can save him. Take the leap... make the call... potentially help be a part of saving the day. And otherwise, what was harmed if the evidence lets the woman off and the kid is fine? Any law enforcement official would understand completely why they were called to the scene under those circumstances.

    Because more often than not, blood=danger. And a gun in the equation kicks the potential for immediate danger up quite a few notches. Your entire scenario screams "danger." Anyone who doesn't see it that way probably has a broken "fight or flight" response.

    That's part of recognizing patterns. Taking things for granted. Sure we all do it. And the reason we keep doing it is because, more often than not, the things we take for granted end up being confirmed/correct, and our confidence in our ability to take certain things for granted increases. If you have a 95% success rate in determining the outcome of something, then you tend to take it for granted the next time. If you only have a 5% success rate, then you don't take things for granted, and make sure you're careful in your movements and judgments each time.
     
    #41 A Vestigial Mote, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If I put it in a god view, would that be the same for believers?

    Judging what they experience something is true but without witnessing it, there natural reaction is to believe nonetheless?

    Like danger, fear and need to believe may be an instinctual thing. Maybe it's human nature not to question evidence for god since it's an automatic reaction just as danger

    Therefore taken at face value without thought?
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hmm. I read it. You think this would apply to belief in God?

    The observation is so strong that one would instinctively take it as true without needing to witness it otherwise?
     
  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    It honestly could be that way. It certainly seems to be, because so often, they display a complete lack of imagination and proclaim that they simply can't understand how anyone could believe contrary to themselves. Doesn't excuse poor modes of thinking - especially when there are plenty of people pointing it out to them, pointing out their glaring lack of compelling evidence, pointing out all the contradictions and real-world evidence that casts huge amounts of doubt on scriptural accounts.

    However, let's keep in mind the idea that one CAN be wrong - even about the presence of danger in the room with the woman holding the gun over the child's bloody body. And I have admitted as much. I have. Theists are the ones UNWILLING to admit that. And that is another strike against them, in my opinion. And let's not also gloss over the fact that this jumping immediately to conclusions as a justification for faith is boiling a person's religious belief down to a "knee-jerk" reaction. It is. So, if this is the basis or reason for something as supposedly important and all-encompassing (as reported by theists themselves) as faith - it's a lousy one. I wouldn't want to be caught using something as flimsy as this as a justification for any of the beliefs that inform my worldview, I'll tell you that much.
     
    #44 A Vestigial Mote, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  5. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think you're looking at theism completely the wrong way around, here. Theists aren't looking for falsifiable evidence of a benevolent God's existence, they're looking for the positive results that come from hoping for a benevolent God's existence. And in general, they get what they're looking for because hoping for something good, and then acting on that hope, often does produce a good result. Positive actions tend to net positive results. The "evidence" for the theist is the positive results they get from living by their faith. They aren't interested in 'falsifiability' because it doesn't gain them anything of value.
     
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  6. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    In this case, is there blood? No more details, I assume this time we're omitting the gun and just focusing on the child being dead, and the mother being nearby.

    In this case, the child could have been gasping for air, and suffocated before his mom made it to him to burp him out.

    If the gun and blood is still in the picture, perhaps she was cleaning it, and had to hold the gun firmly to avoid shooting the baby by accident. The baby fell by accident and hit his head, dying instantly. One can ask why she was cleaning a gun while nursing, but the point is she didn't kill the child.

    In any case, absence of evidence is not proof or disproof, but simply absence of evidence.
     
  7. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    1. Subdue and disarm the woman. Check the child. Contact the police. Render aid if necessary. Wait for emergency services and the police.

    2. Run. Contact the police.

    Maybe there are other conclusions to draw and actions to take based on them, but these seem to me to be the most immediate possibilities.
     
  8. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    Prior to examination, the first blush observation doesn't offer enough evidence to determine the condition of the child beyond what is apparent. It could be stunned, unconscious or dead. Given the scenario the condition is undetermined.
     
  9. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I assume you mean the absence of evidence of events leading to the scene described as it is encountered. The scene itself is evidence and there are three potential witnesses including myself. Though I would only be a witness to events seen on arrival and anything subsequent. Again, the choice of immediate response would be to secure the gun or avoid it by leaving.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If compared to god, if one feels and observes what one thinks is god but because of faith had not witnessed it, would it be instinctual to believe nonetheless given it would be (?) Instinctual to save the child before asking what of/where/who/why?
     
  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    As an intellectual exercise, of course your initial response can't be trusted. Lacking information you rely on past experience, cultural bias, tropes etc...

    My point was that reliance on feeling is an evolutionary product that is inherent in human nature.

    So can a believer trust their feelings wrt God? Nope, but they are a victim, IMO, of evolution. We are designed to trust our feelings in order to survive. Consciously a person has to learn their feelings can't be trusted. I suppose the circumstances which triggers that is different for each person.
     
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  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It sounds more of a self-fulling prophecy?

    The first part, it was more assuming the evidence of god by observing the things "around it" synchronicity, experiences, historical findings (the child and woman), but not from witnessing and direct experience from god that would confirm whether the faith/intelligent guess is true.

    While many don't question it, but follow along but others, even people not of abrahamic faith, do they question their belief/experience or?

    The latter, though, does sound more self-fulling. Belief/prayer etc opens your eyes up to what you interpret is the answer to your prayers (the interpretation coming from the mother/child) but not to where it keeps you critical on the gaps that could exist without the witness.

    Even with the witness, one wonders if we trust our own feelings?

    But since it brings positive results, who would, ask?

    Nice insight.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It has nothing to do with the child and woman and what one would do. If I mentioned to investigate, of course more details are needed. I mentioned not to investigate since that's not what the analogy is getting at.

    There's a word for this I can't quite think of. It's when you see two separate events or objects that look like they should go together. Our brains automatically think they are related but when we think about it before our instinct reaction, we find out we were wrong. If we were to ask ourselves the psychology and theorize why we came to that conclusion beyond "it's human nature", I wonder if we find the error in our thinking (or is there?) and would we challenge it or go off our human instinct because it may bring positive results.

    There's a word that wraps this up but I can't think of it at the moment.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    That's investigating etc. I excluded that.

    Just from seeing the situation without witnessing it, would you draw a conclusion the child was in danger even though you haven't witnessed it?

    If so, what brought you to that conclusion?

    We can say "it's human instinct" or any person would safe the child etc but I was thinking there's something more than human instinct that makes us believe things we experience and see but have not witnessed ourselves.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Just going by what you observe when you connect the dots, without investigation and human instinct, would you conclude "automatically" that the child was in danger? If so, what brought you to that conclusion outside the investigation, details, and human instinct.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If you didn't see the incident, taking out immediate response but theorizing instead, would there be a reason to assume the child was in danger or are you just going off human immediate response?

    If relating this to god, do you think people can theorize the reason behind why they believe one synchronized event and two other ones they experience, although personal, is evidence that god, say, answered a prayer?

    It's more questioning whether one would look at the facts of an godly experience or accept the experiences, feelings, and thoughts as an immediate response of human nature (if that be so?). I know many of us on any topic would have cognitive dissonance to theorize before making an conclusion but I don't know if that's something people take into consideration.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Two questions.

    Since not everyone falls under that immediate response (maybe because many of us have more of a critical mind than others), do you think it's possible to show them that their conclusions cannot be trusted?

    The second is, how could you shrink this because I was trying to say this but couldn't figure how to phrase it.

    That and it made me think just now then it must be human evolution to think god exists based on interpretations of the outside world that in itself doesn't prove anything.
     
  18. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    That's why I said what I said. Maybe the person holding the gun was a man with long hair and/or features resembling a woman. And maybe that person on the ground is an adult, just being small in size. Or maybe they're just mannequins. Don't assume without investigation. :D
     
  19. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    I am uncertain how much of a roll instinct has in driving belief. Certainly, belief some higher power is a dominant view held by many groups of people throughout history. If it exists as a primary motivator, it likely varies among people and groups. Some might run at the discovery of the gun. Self-preservation being a compelling instinct, known and recognized.
     
  20. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    We are familiar with people hurting children, using guns against others and that an apparently unresponsive person covered in blood is likely to be injured.

    For all I know the scene encountered could have resulted from another person attacking the child and the woman possessing the gun, because she had used it to protect the child. The blood could be from an injured assailant that had already fled by the time I arrived.

    I can only go by what I see initially and act on understanding garnered from prior experience and knowledge.
     
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