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A Single Human Family -- Will We Ever Get There?

Can we humans ever finally discover that, isolated as we are on a tiny world in a vast cosmos, are o

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • No

    Votes: 11 68.8%

  • Total voters
    16

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Christ and God are one and the same.
The Bible clearly demonstrates that Jesus is not God.
Jesus is not God Bible verses

Other than what is in the Bible we know that Jesus is not God because Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

That means that on a purely logical basis Jesus is not God.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Other than what is in the Bible we know that Jesus is not God because Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.
Yes Jesus has all of those because he's God... Your logic is backwards.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes Jesus has all of those because he's God... Your logic is backwards.
Jesus was a man so Jesus had none of those qualities.
Jesus was not Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial. Only God has these qualities.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Jesus was a man so Jesus had none of those qualities.
Jesus was not Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial. Only God has these qualities.
He was and is. You keep saying only God has those qualities like that means something. God is infinite. He can exist as three but one at the same time. Jesus became a man. He always was God.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I just saw @Revoltingest's thread on China backing Russia (although slightly covertly). Rather than answering it, I thought I would take this opportunity to ask a question of my own -- one that, as a Humanist, has been at the forefront of my thought for decades.

And that question is this: "Can we humans ever finally discover that, isolated as we are on a tiny world in a vast cosmos, are one family, and that our continued survival is becoming more and more dependent on whether we can learn to live together, rather than continually try to win some special place over the rest of humanity?"

Or are we doomed to continue trying to outdo each other until, finally and ultimately, none of us is left, and the cockroaches get their turn at world domination?

I voted no but it is possible but like many things humans rarely take logic into account,global warming has been on the ignore list for rediculously long and the tribal instinct oh humans it's unlikely.

I watched a documentary on North Korea where some reporters were allowed limited access,it was so creepy and surreal but highlighted how we are all the same but different and definately not on the same page.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Jesus was a man so Jesus had none of those qualities.
Jesus was not Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial. Only God has these qualities.
You sure about all of those? Wasn't He Holy? Wasn't He infallible? He's also eternal in my book. Don't know if He was unchanging. So of those other qualities were conferred upon Him by God as the Godhead representing God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You sure about all of those? Wasn't He Holy? Wasn't He infallible? He's also eternal in my book. Don't know if He was unchanging. So of those other qualities were conferred upon Him by God as the Godhead representing God.
Jesus was Eternal, Holy, and Infallible, but Jesus was not Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, or Immaterial. Only God had all those qualities.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You sure about all of those? Wasn't He Holy? Wasn't He infallible? He's also eternal in my book. Don't know if He was unchanging. So of those other qualities were conferred upon Him by God as the Godhead representing God.

Jesus was Eternal, Holy, and Infallible, but Jesus was not Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, or Immaterial. Only God had all those qualities.

The way I have come to understand this, is that Christ, is indeed all the Attributes.

It is the 'Holy Spirit' that is the 'Self of God', the Messenger and that is all the Attributes. They are the First and Last, Beginning and End, the Alpha and Omega.

God is known by the attributes, but is not defined by the Attributes, the Messengers are defined by the attributes.

Baha'u'llah offered.

"... Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world...."

Thus to manifest the attributes, they must be the embodiment of the attributes and define them for us.

RegardsTony.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I just saw @Revoltingest's thread on China backing Russia (although slightly covertly). Rather than answering it, I thought I would take this opportunity to ask a question of my own -- one that, as a Humanist, has been at the forefront of my thought for decades.

And that question is this: "Can we humans ever finally discover that, isolated as we are on a tiny world in a vast cosmos, are one family, and that our continued survival is becoming more and more dependent on whether we can learn to live together, rather than continually try to win some special place over the rest of humanity?"

Or are we doomed to continue trying to outdo each other until, finally and ultimately, none of us is left, and the cockroaches get their turn at world domination?
The reason I disliked humanism is that it is illogically and unjustifiably optimistic about humanity as a whole (while Christianity is utterly pessimistic). We are neither cats nor ants. We will fight and we will cooperative. There will good stuff and there will be bad stuff, and we may survive or we may not. Let's just try to do what we can and see where it leads as long as there is somewhere to lead. If, as humanists, you do not believe we have some divine mission in the universe, then why focus so much on some " human family utopia" sort of thing?
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Jesus was Eternal, Holy, and Infallible, but Jesus was not Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, or Immaterial. Only God had all those qualities.
He was All-Powerful as conferred upon Him by God. Baha'u'llah had that quality. I read Adib Taherzadeh's books about Baha'u'llah 3 or 4 times, and I assure you He exhibited that quality. Baha'u'llah was also All-Knowing, at least about knowledge short of knowing God's essence. All-Wise the same thing. Also He was Sovereign. God gave Him sovereignty upon this earth. Of course He wasn't Self-Sufficient or Self-Existent, I don't think Omnipresent, but He was Omniscient as displayed by Him. not infinite either. Have you heard the phrase "the tree beyond which there is no passing"? I think that's what impassable means. If so, all the Manifestations had that quality. The souls of these Manifestations of course are immaterial, but they had bodies too once.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He was All-Powerful as conferred upon Him by God. Baha'u'llah had that quality. I read Adib Taherzadeh's books about Baha'u'llah 3 or 4 times, and I assure you He exhibited that quality. Baha'u'llah was also All-Knowing, at least about knowledge short of knowing God's essence. All-Wise the same thing. Also He was Sovereign. God gave Him sovereignty upon this earth.
I have my reservations that Baha'u'llah was All-Powerful or All-Knowing or All-Wise.
Did Baha'u'llah ever make any such claims? If not I think it is just your personal opinion.

I can believe that he was Sovereign, because God gave Him sovereignty upon this earth, at least during His dispensation, until another Manifestation of God appears.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I have my reservations that Baha'u'llah was All-Powerful or All-Knowing or All-Wise.
Did Baha'u'llah ever make any such claims? If not I think it is just your personal opinion.

I can believe that he was Sovereign, because God gave Him sovereignty upon this earth, at least during His dispensation, until another Manifestation of God appears.
And further We have said: "That which God hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful, and inspired Physician. By My life! This is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 62)

"O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 11)

And again in another connection: "Revile ye not one another. We, verily, have come to unite and weld together all that dwell on earth. Unto this beareth witness what the ocean of Mine utterance hath revealed amongst men, and yet most of the people have gone astray. If anyone revile you, or trouble touch you, in the path of God, be patient, and put your trust in Him Who heareth, Who seeth. He, in truth, witnesseth, and perceiveth, and doeth what He pleaseth, through the power of His sovereignty. He, verily, is the Lord of strength, and of might. In the Book of God, the Mighty, the Great, ye have been forbidden to engage in contention and conflict. Lay fast hold on whatever will profit you, and profit the peoples of the world. Thus commandeth you the King of Eternity, Who is manifest in His Most Great Name. He, verily, is the Ordainer, the All-Wise."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 24)

O Queen in London! Incline thine ear unto the voice of thy Lord, the Lord of all mankind, calling from the Divine Lote-Tree: Verily, no God is there but Me, the Almighty, the All-Wise!
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 59)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And further We have said: "That which God hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful, and inspired Physician. By My life! This is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 62)

"O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 11)

And again in another connection: "Revile ye not one another. We, verily, have come to unite and weld together all that dwell on earth. Unto this beareth witness what the ocean of Mine utterance hath revealed amongst men, and yet most of the people have gone astray. If anyone revile you, or trouble touch you, in the path of God, be patient, and put your trust in Him Who heareth, Who seeth. He, in truth, witnesseth, and perceiveth, and doeth what He pleaseth, through the power of His sovereignty. He, verily, is the Lord of strength, and of might. In the Book of God, the Mighty, the Great, ye have been forbidden to engage in contention and conflict. Lay fast hold on whatever will profit you, and profit the peoples of the world. Thus commandeth you the King of Eternity, Who is manifest in His Most Great Name. He, verily, is the Ordainer, the All-Wise."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 24)

O Queen in London! Incline thine ear unto the voice of thy Lord, the Lord of all mankind, calling from the Divine Lote-Tree: Verily, no God is there but Me, the Almighty, the All-Wise!
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 59)
Okay, okay..... it is obvious that you know more than I do about such matters.
I am saving these quotes for future reference. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@Truthseeker
I just corrected my Word document so it now reads like this:

Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

Some of God's other attributes are Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, and the Manifestations of God also have these attributes.

Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. The Manifestations of God also have these attributes. Humans also have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Okay, okay..... it is obvious that you know more than I do about such matters.
I am saving these quotes for future reference. :)
I wasn't sure actually I would find the actual quotes to prove my point.:) I find the old Ocean program easier to find such quotes than the newer version. The newer version is better in some ways, such as reading a lot more from other religions, and you can actually start reading where you left off the last time when you read an E-book.
 
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