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A simple question for Creationists

Kirk124

New Member
Hello-
I simply have one question for Creationists:
How do you explain the fact that Human Chromosome 2 looks exactly like a fusion of Chimp Chromosomes 12 and 13? While humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, apes have 24 pairs.
Here's some more of the evidence:
1) The analogous chromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown, when laid end to end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome 2.
2) The remains of the sequence that the chromosome has on its ends (the telomere) is found in the middle of human chromosome 2 where the ancestral chromosomes fused.
3) the detail of this region (pre-telomeric sequence, telomeric sequence, reversed telomeric sequence, pre-telomeric sequence) is exactly what we would expect from a fusion.
4) this telomeric region is exactly where one would expect to find it if a fusion had occurred in the middle of human chromosome 2.
5) the centromere of human chromosome 2 lines up with the chimp chromosome 2p chromosomal centromere.
6) At the place where we would expect it on the human chromosome we find the remnants of the chimp 2q centromere
(Unfortunately I cannot post the URL of this source due to forum rules. Just google a quote from it to find it)

The question is, why would an intelligent designer make a human chromosome look exactly as though it has been formed from the fusion of two chromosomes that we see in modern chimps, and that were probably in our last common ancestor?

I've yet to meet a creationist who can explain this; I'm genuinely interested in seeing if anyone has an answer.

Kirk
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
Response A) It's not the similarities 'tween the chromosomes but the information therein. I.e. creationists and the definition of "information" response.

Response B) Alleged similarities are not as similar as proposed.

Response C) Humanity was created in God's image; apes are similar to humans so it's no surprise they have a similar biology. This is evidence of a common Creator, not common descent.

Response D) Goddidit


How'd I do? ;)
Yep, all the responses are common creationist rebuttals and none have any validity.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Response A) It's not the similarities 'tween the chromosomes but the information therein. I.e. creationists and the definition of "information" response.

Response B) Alleged similarities are not as similar as proposed.

Response C) Humanity was created in God's image; apes are similar to humans so it's no surprise they have a similar biology. This is evidence of a common Creator, not common descent.

Response D) Goddidit


How'd I do? ;)
Yep, all the responses are common creationist rebuttals and none have any validity.

Pfft, you didn't include a single piece of scripture. FAIL!
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
Pfft, you didn't include a single piece of scripture. FAIL!
Oh no! This is ID science! We don't use scripture to explain things!
petarded.png
 

Kirk124

New Member
Nepenthe: The sad thing is, your answer is nearly identical to that of AnswersInGenesis's.
(Google "A Tale of Two Chromosomes", unfortunately I cannot post URLs)
A. They start with "Wrong, because the bible says so!"
Most importantly, reliable eyewitness testimony is more powerful than circumstantial evidence in establishing historical details. The Bible, inspired by the Creator himself, indicates that humans were created in the image of God and distinct from other animals.

Then, they ramble on about how birds "use tools", so thus "chimps using tools" doesn't necessarily mean they are related to us. How this is relevant beats me.
Ironically, a few birds have been known to use human language quite well, at least for an animal.6 Simple tool making ability is also seen in a variety of animals.7 While intelligence in animals is quite fascinating, it is still significantly different from that of humans and gives no hint of common ancestry.

They then go on and say: "Dr Miller[the guy they are responding to on the subject] may be talking about something else, which is wrong!". (Of course, he isn't.)
Dr. Miller's enthusiasm about this chromosomal rearrangement may be tied to the older notion that such mutations are the basis for speciation...

... I don't even know what to say to their next few sentences.
So, the bottom line is that centric fusions themselves do not inevitably result in a new species. It is conceivable that some apes exist with 46 chromosomes. Yet these animals will be distinctly apes; they will not be “evolving” to become a human.

And, after that, they completely and totally fail. How, exactly, does this explain the fact that the human chromosome 2 looks exactly like chimp. chromosomes 12 and 13 fused together?
If the observed evidence is really from a fusion, it is best explained by the fusion of two human chromosomes.

Then, they change the topic to their favorite topic(and most easily debunked point), which is that of information:
The biggest problem with Dr. Miller’s story is that it distracts the audience from the real issue. It is not the number of chromosomes that is really a significant difference between humans and apes, but the information contained on those chromosomes.

Then, they explain that because humans only share *some* of the miRNA proteins in their brains with chimps, they somehow cannot be related. This is of course, nonsense. With the rapid evolution of the human brain since we diverged from a common ancestor, we'd expect there to be many differences in brain chemistry between chimps and humans.
Despite the superficial similarities between human and ape chromosomes, there are important differences on the molecular level. There are many protein coding genes in humans that are distinctly human and are not found in chimps.

The guy's argument then amounts to:
God gave humans the exact same branding patterns on their chromosomes as chimps, for some apparent reason, and then an individual in the human lineage had a lucky chromosome fusion event that somehow spread throughout the entire population.
He ignores that the evidence is not only in the branding patterns, but in the individual genes.
The lengths that some will go for Creationism is truly amazing.

-Kirk.
 

elisheba

Member
If we descended from monkeys - there would be no more monkeys. If advancement comes from how far along you are in evolutionary stages-then people would get promotions based on how their feet looked. The most advanced - who would be the boss-would have toes that are the least similar to fingers. The lowest paid job in the company would belong to the person with toes that were similar to fingers.
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
If we descended from monkeys - there would be no more monkeys. If advancement comes from how far along you are in evolutionary stages-then people would get promotions based on how their feet looked. The most advanced - who would be the boss-would have toes that are the least similar to fingers. The lowest paid job in the company would belong to the person with toes that were similar to fingers.
I like the way you think!
:bow:
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
If we descended from monkeys - there would be no more monkeys. If advancement comes from how far along you are in evolutionary stages-then people would get promotions based on how their feet looked. The most advanced - who would be the boss-would have toes that are the least similar to fingers. The lowest paid job in the company would belong to the person with toes that were similar to fingers.

So would my sloping forehead and prehensile tail qualify me for CEO or as a mail clerk?
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
If we descended from monkeys - there would be no more monkeys. If advancement comes from how far along you are in evolutionary stages-then people would get promotions based on how their feet looked. The most advanced - who would be the boss-would have toes that are the least similar to fingers. The lowest paid job in the company would belong to the person with toes that were similar to fingers.

You can't be serious. Evolution isn't a chain, it's a tree. Nothing is more evolved than anything else, but it's evolved in it's own way. As for the monkey comment, I'm completely dumbfounded. It never ceases to amaze me that the people who oppose evolution are the ones who have the least understanding of it. Listen to me carefully, WE DIDN'T EVOLVE FROM MONKEY'S. We had a common ancestor with chimpanzees. We also share 99% of our D.N.A with chimps.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
If we descended from monkeys - there would be no more monkeys. If advancement comes from how far along you are in evolutionary stages-then people would get promotions based on how their feet looked. The most advanced - who would be the boss-would have toes that are the least similar to fingers. The lowest paid job in the company would belong to the person with toes that were similar to fingers.

Humor, intentional or not? You decide.
 

Kirk124

New Member
If we descended from monkeys - there would be no more monkeys. If advancement comes from how far along you are in evolutionary stages-then people would get promotions based on how their feet looked. The most advanced - who would be the boss-would have toes that are the least similar to fingers. The lowest paid job in the company would belong to the person with toes that were similar to fingers.
This isn't serious, right?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
If we descended from monkeys - there would be no more monkeys. If advancement comes from how far along you are in evolutionary stages-then people would get promotions based on how their feet looked. The most advanced - who would be the boss-would have toes that are the least similar to fingers. The lowest paid job in the company would belong to the person with toes that were similar to fingers
Actually this is not how evolution works.
 
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