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A question for Hindus

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Krishnano,
Firstly sorry for the misspelling your name.
Next your statement:
I am attached to the Supreme Self, the Supersoul, the Parameshvara and Parambrahman, Vasudeva, and through that attachment, I pray to become purified from all material designations and reach the platform in understanding Krishna as He is.

Have no problem in YOUR attaching with any one to do the needful BUT the contention is that finally all attachments have to be left behind whatever may be the PATH/ WAY one follows. If YOU are not convinced; please do not be convinced as this is something which each individual has to cross when the time comes. Till then, take this as a non-issue.
Love & rgds
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Krishnano,
Firstly sorry for the misspelling your name.
Next your statement:
I am attached to the Supreme Self, the Supersoul, the Parameshvara and Parambrahman, Vasudeva, and through that attachment, I pray to become purified from all material designations and reach the platform in understanding Krishna as He is.

Have no problem in YOUR attaching with any one to do the needful BUT the contention is that finally all attachments have to be left behind whatever may be the PATH/ WAY one follows. If YOU are not convinced; please do not be convinced as this is something which each individual has to cross when the time comes. Till then, take this as a non-issue.
Love & rgds
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Personally, I consider the ISKCONis clearly Hindu -- however much they object to the appellation. ;)
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
You are quite right that a dualistic perspective inescapably necessitates bhakti, but from our point of view, it is boring to think of 'merging into Brahman,'

I can see why you would think it is boring to merge into Brahman and find the other practices like Jnana and Ashtanga to be bereft of feeling. I agree with you Bhakti seems like a much more human and loving path and I have no doubt it creates beautiful people that everybody adores, much more than the intellectuals whom only a few can appreciate. However, those who do enjoy abstract thinking and exploring their mental world do not find the prospect of 'merging into Brahman' boring. In fact it a very thrilling undertaking for them because they can realise the nature of reality and become ONE. I would consider myself a Jnani, and I have to say as much as I admire Bhakti and would bow before the saints, I have a very strong yearning for knowledge. I simply need to know. This is simply my svardharma.

We are not God, but we are part of the spiritual body of God, maintaining our distinct, individual spirit souls.

This is a question that willl always confound me. Do we as 'souls' have an independent existence or is it simply ignorance that breeds the notion of individuality. I cannot resolve this paradox, it does not agree with my logical analysis at all, which can only admit ONE non-dual and transcedental reality and no dualities. Yet, the problem is why is there a 'creation' and why is it not-like the ONE, can NOT ONE emerge from ONE?
To resolve this I have to accept a duality of Purush and Prakriti. This still does not resolve the problem how does something finite, imperfect(jivatman) emit from something infinite and perfect? Just as an orange cannot grow on an apple tree, a finite and imperfect thing cannot grow out of an infinite and perfect thing.

Next, if I consider the possibility of distinct individual souls which eternally exist and also an absolute being which eternally exists, the second problem emerges how can an infinite, perfect and supreme being be made out of finite, imperfect parts? You cannot have an infinity made out of parts or a whole made out of parts. And if the jivas are really eternal, then why are they changing, what changes cannot be eternal.

So in either case whether you adopt non-duality or duality you still have problems. What do you think?

But bhakti-marga is both for the philosopher and for the commonfolk. It is for everyone to take, and I do personally feel that there is more bhakti in loving God for eternity than to merge into a formless existence.:)

As long as one wants duality they will exist in a a dualistic plane. If you constantly love god wouldn't you be subject to the law of diminishing returns?; you love him for a day, for a month, for a week, for a year, for a decade, for a century, for several life times, at some point wouldn't your love start to lessen, how would you maintain this constant state of intoxication. Indeed isn't the sole purpose of samsara to transcend all attachments. It sounds like to love something for eternity is an attachment.
 
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zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Suraj,
To resolve this I have to accept a duality of Purush and Prakriti. This still does not resolve the problem how does something finite, imperfect(jivatman) emit from something infinite and perfect? Just as an orange cannot grow on an apple tree, a finite and imperfect thing cannot grow out of an infinite and perfect thing.

Your contention that: *IMPERFECT*[jivatma] emitting from infinite and perfect
Discuss: The whole universe has come out of Nothingness which itself is perfect and what came out of it too are all perfect like where it came from.
Imperfection if at all that is perceived is only when that which came out of the nothingness has evolved to the stage of humans having a DEVELOPED mind and only when this human sees things through that mind does anything appear imperfect; otherwise in no-mind, everything is perfect.
This developed MIND itself is the SATAN and all dualities starts from there. Till such times there was no duality everything was in harmony, perfect, garden of eden.

So the reverse too works on the same principle of perfect/imperfect.

Love & rgds
 

krishnano

Member
I can see why you would think it is boring to merge into Brahman and find the other practices like Jnana and Ashtanga to be bereft of feeling. I agree with you Bhakti seems like a much more human and loving path and I have no doubt it creates beautiful people that everybody adores, much more than the intellectuals whom only a few can appreciate. However, those who do enjoy abstract thinking and exploring their mental world do not find the prospect of 'merging into Brahman' boring. In fact it a very thrilling undertaking for them because they can realise the nature of reality and become ONE. I would consider myself a Jnani, and I have to say as much as I admire Bhakti and would bow before the saints, I have a very strong yearning for knowledge. I simply need to know. This is simply my svardharma.

Well, there is the idea that through jnana, the culmination of bhakti is inevitable. However, I do agree that it would be thrilling for some people who desire and have a thirst for knowledge. After all, the Gita speaks of true knowledge when it is done through acting for God without desires for fruitive results or materialistic rewards and in controlling the senses.

After all, the more one knows, the more one doesn't know. And this is because of the simple awe that God is infinite and fathomless. I do see though that there can be the danger of losing the whole point of Vedic teaching, which is to know God and love Him. Jnana can dangerously lead to a bland reality that becomes monotonous, bereft of the spiritual epiphanies resulting in pure ananda. While bhakti without any philosophical endeavour is mere sentimentality; a sahajiyic falsehood, if I may say.

"By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas."
Bhagavad Gita 15.15

Perhaps it is something that I can never understand, lol. I have always leaned towards the bhakti practices of all religions, whether it be Christian, Baha'i and Jewish mysticism, Sufism, Pure Land Buddhism and the like.

This is a question that willl always confound me. Do we as 'souls' have an independent existence or is it simply ignorance that breeds the notion of individuality. I cannot resolve this paradox, it does not agree with my logical analysis at all, which can only admit ONE non-dual and transcedental reality and no dualities. Yet, the problem is why is there a 'creation' and why is it not-like the ONE, can NOT ONE emerge from ONE?
To resolve this I have to accept a duality of Purush and Prakriti. This still does not resolve the problem how does something finite, imperfect(jivatman) emit from something infinite and perfect? Just as an orange cannot grow on an apple tree, a finite and imperfect thing cannot grow out of an infinite and perfect thing.

Next, if I consider the possibility of distinct individual souls which eternally exist and also an absolute being which eternally exists, the second problem emerges how can an infinite, perfect and supreme being be made out of finite, imperfect parts? You cannot have an infinity made out of parts or a whole made out of parts. And if the jivas are really eternal, then why are they changing, what changes cannot be eternal.

So in either case whether you adopt non-duality or duality you still have problems. What do you think?
The idea is that we were never created, but eternal, and thus 'part and parcel' of the transcendental body of God. This eternality of the soul - that is was never created in the first place but quantitatively different, yet qualitatively the same as God - can be derived from these verses:

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."
BG 2:12

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."
BG 2:20

For example, the soul contains the very same qualities as God, such as tendencies to will, to love, beauty, strength, etc. However, these are quantitatively different, in that these virtues or partial personalities are manifested in total perfection in God, whilst these very same qualities are only minute in the spirit soul (jivatma). As a drop of water contains the same chemical composition as that of the ocean, the amount thereof differs between the two in that the drop of water is quantitatively different than that of the whole ocean. Or one can use the example of the spark and the fire - both of them emanate from the same source, and give out both heat and light. However, the potency and size of the spark can in no way be equal to that of the original fire, and the spark itself can never be independent of the fire.

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."
BG 15.7

Although the soul is in its original constitution, pure and immaculate, due to its consciousness becoming attached to the material desires, and wishing to become apart from its master to become its own, it 'descends' from this pure consciousness and takes birth. The spiritual soul is the only truth, and consciousness is a manifested symptom of the soul. Just as a finger exists to aid the whole body and can not be totally independent from the body, we are also part of that transcendental body of God and are eternally there. But due to the conditioning of material life, we falsely see the material manifestation as the spiritual truth and thus are further deluded by Yogamaya. Thus, bhakti enables the devotee to get away from this attachment to the material world.

The material world is not false - it is only a temporary, transient reality and the emanating external energy (bahiranga shakti) of God. We are actually part of the internal energy, the spiritual energy (antaranga shakti) of God, but our consciousness tends to be marginal in its position and association.

But as in the Gita, by surrender to the Supreme Person, the Purushottama, we gain jnana, and then bhakti, and with a purified consciousness, go back Home to God and never return.

"Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is the knower of everything. He therefore engages himself in full devotional service to Me, O son of Bharata."
BG 15.19

"And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt."
BG 8.5

We call this one of the many aspects of Acintya-bheda-abheda tattva, the philosophy of inconceivable oneness and difference. Another example is that God is everything, in that everything that we see in the material world are mere emanations of His energy (shakti). Otherwise, He is not part of this material manifestation, because He has His supreme Abode in the spiritual planets, the spiritual energy. Acintya-bheda-abheda-tattva balances both monistic and dualistic tendencies, although the differences between the individuality of the soul and the Supreme Soul are distinctly outlined.

The Wikipedia article probably says it a lot clearer than I can. ;) But that's my understanding of the issue.
 
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krishnano

Member
As long as one wants duality they will exist in a a dualistic plane. If you constantly love god wouldn't you be subject to the law of diminishing returns?; you love him for a day, for a month, for a week, for a year, for a decade, for a century, for several life times, at some point wouldn't your love start to lessen, how would you maintain this constant state of intoxication. Indeed isn't the sole purpose of samsara to transcend all attachments. It sounds like to love something for eternity is an attachment.
"Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer or give away, and whatever austerities you perform — do that, O son of Kunti, as an offering to Me. In this way you will be freed from bondage to work and its auspicious and inauspicious results. With your mind fixed on Me in this principle of renunciation, you will be liberated and come to Me."BG 9:27-28


"But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Prtha — for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death."
BG 12.6-7


The Gita is clear that attachment to God is detachment from all things material, because you are working towards the spiritual reality and reawakening your dormant God-consciousness. If one were to try to renounce material things, how can they renounce something that never belonged to them (this material manifestation is part of the energy of the Supreme Lord, and thus it all belongs to God), and if one gives in to the material senses, then ey is no better than an animal.

By the engagement in bhakti, one can always be in love with God, but it is a process of which necessitates vaidhi-bhakti, or sadhana-bhakti. Then, from there one can develop raga-bhakti, then bhava-bhakti, and finally prema-bhakti. In the beginning, there are always offenses when we do japa, seva, arcana, etc. At the moment, every good feeling we get out of practicing bhakti are situational - they stem from easy affiliation of the environment (one gets rowdy in a club while that same person will feel depressed amongst a bunch of heart broken girlfriends), like a crystal that adopts whatever colour it receives in the background via the eye. However, when we go through the process of our sadhana, that love for Krishna will become spontaneous (raga-marga) and it will never fall away. If that love does fall in one's earthly birth time, then it is an immature, undeveloped love, even a mere sentimentality that is not spiritual love of God, or bhakti.

The whole part of samsara is through the transcendence of material attachments. In bhakti yoga, attachment to the Supreme Lord solely is detachment from all else.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts in my limited understanding of Gaudiya Vedanta. What do you think?


Haribol!
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Krishnano,
Though your question is for our friend Suraj but would respond to it stating that when you state:
The whole part of samsara is through the transcendence of material attachments. In bhakti yoga, attachment to the Supreme Lord solely is detachment from all else.

Yes, bhakti yoga goes that far only; but it should NOT be taken as the end of the road. Jesus too spoke of love like Krishna and Christianity is more or less in line with *Bhakti Yoga* but again it is not the end of the road. Surely all PATHS / WAYS is not suitable for everyone; rather individual's should choose whatever suits them.
Surely even if more and more of the practioners are able to achieve salvation through that route will be a big upliftment for all of humanity too. Individualy too it is no less a yoga than others as from that point it is the last frontier to that *NOTHINGNESS*.
Love & rgds
 

krishnano

Member
In Gaudiya Vedanta, bhakti is the beginning, mediary and end result of the spirit soul.

Why should it not be the end of the road? *shrugs shoulders* I dunno...

But when I read these verses, I can't help but think of bhakti!

"But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Prtha— for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death."
BG 12.6-7

"Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt."
Bg 12.8

"And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt."
BG 8.5

"For one who always remembers Me without deviation, I am easy to obtain, O son of Prtha, because of his constant engagement in devotional service.
After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.
From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again.
"
8.14-16

"One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.
Though engaged in all kinds of activities, My pure devotee, under My protection, reaches the eternal and imperishable abode by My grace.
In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.
If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My grace.
"
BG 18.55-58

"Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you My supreme instruction, the most confidential knowledge of all. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit.
Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.
Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.
"
BG 18.64-66


Christianity of Jesus, especially the Catholic Church, practices bhakti (devotional service) as well. The Muslims do too, especially the Sufis, and the Jewish mystics and Pure Land Buddhists engage in the practice of bhakti yoga. While jnana-yoga is only for mental speculators and philosophers, raja-yoga or ashtanga-yoga for ascetics, and karma-yoga for workers, everyone can practice bhakti-yoga.

The Gopis are considered the highest servitors of Godhead. Why is this? It is because their simple surrender to the Supreme Lord was accepted as pure. They were not studious in knowledge, nor did they practice asceticism, nor did they engage in fire sacrifices. They merely loved God, and that allowed them to intimately associate with Him.

Bhakti-yoga, unlike the other forms of yoga is for everyone, but not everyone chooses bhakti-yoga. I acknowledge this. However, Krishna does say in the Gita that ultimately, it is shravanam (Hearing the Lord's pastimes), kirtanam vishnoh (Glorifying and chanting of the Lord) smaranam (Remembrance of the Lord)... that will bring one close to God in the quickest manner.

Even bhaktas do not desire mukti at all - all they desire is pure, shuddha-prema that only God can bestow. :) In the Gita, all yogas culminate in total perfection with bhakti.

Yes, bhakti yoga goes that far only; but it should NOT be taken as the end of the road. Jesus too spoke of love like Krishna and Christianity is more or less in line with *Bhakti Yoga* but again it is not the end of the road. Surely all PATHS / WAYS is not suitable for everyone; rather individual's should choose whatever suits them.
Surely even if more and more of the practioners are able to achieve salvation through that route will be a big upliftment for all of humanity too. Individualy too it is no less a yoga than others as from that point it is the last frontier to that *NOTHINGNESS*.
Love & rgds
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Krishnano,
Please do not take/feek anything otherwise.
When you read something and feel something; surely it is absolutely right. There is nothing wrong in it. It is PERFECT.
Do not be dissuaded by what am stating; it is all but a metter of time.
Remeber that *The begining is the end of the road* and *Well begun is half done*.
On both counts, you are way ahead.
Remeber that each is in different time/space zone according to where they are in terms of their own evolution and time will do the rest where the individual cannot.
Leave the rest to that supreme being to whom you surrender. Surely he will take care of it.
Love & rgds
 

krishnano

Member
Friend Krishnano,
Please do not take/feek anything otherwise.
When you read something and feel something; surely it is absolutely right. There is nothing wrong in it. It is PERFECT.
Do not be dissuaded by what am stating; it is all but a metter of time.
Remeber that *The begining is the end of the road* and *Well begun is half done*.
On both counts, you are way ahead.
Remeber that each is in different time/space zone according to where they are in terms of their own evolution and time will do the rest where the individual cannot.
Leave the rest to that supreme being to whom you surrender. Surely he will take care of it.
Love & rgds

Okay! ^___^

Love,
Krishnano
 
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