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A question for Buddhist and Hindus

zer0

Member
I've grown a bit curious, after a discussion I had with my aunt on religion. What are you're political views? For instance, my Government teacher stressed that you can draw a line through any amount of political philosophies and divide them into two categories, individualism and collectivism. So I suppose I have three questions (1) Do you feel that you are a collectivist or an individualists, (2) Which political philosophies and/or parties which are relevant to your location do you lean towards. and finally (3)How, if at all, do you feel your religious practices have affected your political views?

I hope I am allowed to post this here. As a clarification I don't necessarily want any one else's views aside from Buddhist or Hindus, although they are welcome just as equally, they are not the intent of my posting this. That is why I am in the Dharmic Religions DIR.

My main reason for asking this is because from what I have observed so far (so far) many religious people I know display political views which are in direct conflict with their religious views. But they fail to see this no matter how much proof they are provided. Thx in advance :D
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I am a Hindu and I lean left. I think it has to with do with the social responsibility I see as part of dharma. Vegetarianism, taking care of the weak, taking care of the planet by being environmentally aware and in practise ... In a sense I'm more anti-right, as my vote has alternated somewhat over the years, but never to the right. (Canadians do have more than 2 choices.)
 

zer0

Member
You may have more than two parties but all of those parties are still divided into the two philosophies of individualism and collectivism and left and right is a universal scale of measuring economic stance, the left being collectivist and the right being individualist.

Why don't you just take care of the weak or the planet through your own individual efforts and personal choices? For instance donating money to charities and planting a tree on arbor day?
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
1. Individualist, as long as that individual is not disruptive or dangerous to society, I don't care. i.e., they can love who they want, but they can't go around murdering people or spray-painting on things because "they're an individual".

2. None, they all frigging suck.

3. I don't think they have. I don't like the idea of voting with one's religious beliefs, though. Too potentially.. dangerous?



As a clarification I don't necessarily want any one else's views aside from Buddhist or Hindus, although they are welcome just as equally, they are not the intent of my posting this. That is why I am in the Dharmic Religions DIR.
You're ignoring the Sikhs and the Jains!

Well, I don't think we have any active Jains. But still! The Sikhs! They're Dharmic, too!
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
(1) Do you feel that you are a collectivist or an individualists,

Collectivist. I'm not quite sure I even believe in the existence of individuals.


(2) Which political philosophies and/or parties which are relevant to your location do you lean towards.
I tend to value thinking about the future, particularly when it comes to ecology and maintaining a sustainable population level.

I am very much a fan of the notion of social contract. Personal wealth is definitely not a right to be warranted by the government, or by anyone really. Welfare is a good thing.

Does Utilitarianism (in the ethical sense) count?

Also, I feel about as far removed from the GOP as a human being can be.
and finally (3)How, if at all, do you feel your religious practices have affected your political views?
I'm not sure that they did. Maybe it is the other way around.


Looking forward for your conclusions.
 

zer0

Member
1. Individualist, as long as that individual is not disruptive or dangerous to society, I don't care. i.e., they can love who they want, but they can't go around murdering people or spray-painting on things because "they're an individual".

2. None, they all frigging suck.

3. I don't think they have. I don't like the idea of voting with one's religious beliefs, though. Too potentially.. dangerous?

But you don't think that the knowledge, practice and realizations you have come to as a result of your religion affect your political views and/or actions in any way?


You're ignoring the Sikhs and the Jains!

Well, I don't think we have any active Jains. But still! The Sikhs! They're Dharmic, too!

Valid point. Okay Sikhs and Jains are also being considered.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Why don't you just take care of the weak or the planet through your own individual efforts and personal choices? For instance donating money to charities and planting a tree on arbor day?

Yes I do that already. But my little bit certainly doesn't do much for the planet. I'm no rich scrooge who could do a lot if he/she put their minds to it. When individuals have more net worth than a small country does, I see something oddly wrong about humanity. But I think by voting collectivist, other people have to (be charitable) as well. Some have argued, for example that Canada's health care system is just government forced charity. That's not how I see it. The left-right thing isn't that black-white here, or anywhere where there are many parties. In Italy for example, the parties are constantly shifting here and there and forming new coalitions etc. Its all more compliated than that. So you can be 'left' in some ways and then 'right' in others. Certainly I oppose pure individualism. The early pioneers and others founded early plitical parties in the spirit of co-operation.
 

zer0

Member
Collectivist. I'm not quite sure I even believe in the existence of individuals.

I'm sure you came to this thought individually? ;) My worst vice is that I am a word picker.

I tend to value thinking about the future, particularly when it comes to ecology and maintaining a sustainable population level.

What exactly does that mean?

I am very much a fan of the notion of social contract. Personal wealth is definitely not a right to be warranted by the government, or by anyone really. Welfare is a good thing.

What do you mean by personal wealth is definitely not a right to be warranted by the government?

Does Utilitarianism (in the ethical sense) count?

Count for what? It can get kind of scary when you say "That which is most useful is most good" Because I personally would like to know who is defining useful and useful towards what exactly? There are many things which are useful for driving a car that are not necessarily useful for making a pie. There are many people who are useful in developing a piano that are not useful in developing a car. Usefulness is just as subjective if not more so than good and bad. For instance there tends to be a fairly universal sense of what is good and what is bad. If someone is killing people most people see it as bad. But there is not a universal sense of usefulness. For instance, I would be perfectly happy living in a world without sports. I have on many occasion considered them useless.

Also, I feel about as far removed from the GOP as a human being can be.I'm not sure that they did. Maybe it is the other way around.

Looking forward for your conclusions.

I don't know, I am a little confused about a few things you said.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
But you don't think that the knowledge, practice and realizations you have come to as a result of your religion affect your political views and/or actions in any way?
Possibly, but I'd prefer not to mix them knowingly at least.
Look at the crap that comes from people voting with their religious views in some areas of the world, after all.

Valid point. Okay Sikhs and Jains are also being considered.
;)
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I separate my political views from my religious views, because politics need to stick with the main standard ethics and morals (no killing, stealing, etc.), whereas I have my own standard that I do not have the right to impose on others. I'm kind of a collectivist left-leaner.

Therefore, religiously, I'm against abortion, but politically, I'm pro-choice. After all, I'm anti-killing bugs if it can be avoided, but I'm not going to support a law that forbids people from killing bugs.
 

zer0

Member
Yes I do that already. But my little bit certainly doesn't do much for the planet. I'm no rich scrooge who could do a lot if he/she put their minds to it. When individuals have more net worth than a small country does, I see something oddly wrong about humanity. But I think by voting collectivist, other people have to (be charitable) as well. Some have argued, for example that Canada's health care system is just government forced charity. That's not how I see it. The left-right thing isn't that black-white here, or anywhere where there are many parties. In Italy for example, the parties are constantly shifting here and there and forming new coalitions etc. Its all more compliated than that. So you can be 'left' in some ways and then 'right' in others. Certainly I oppose pure individualism. The early pioneers and others founded early plitical parties in the spirit of co-operation.

Yeah, but you have to remember that it is through us that they derive their richest. Plus, rich people aren't all scrooges. They often donate to charity funds and spread their money around quite a bit on their own (not to mention the massive amounts taken out for taxes). It may not be forced charity but many people I know who have moved back have said that it is terribly ineffective and many of them had to choose whether to wait and die or come back to America. But we're not exactly looking to debate politics here.

When one becomes left in some ways and right in others, you get what we're having now in America, a mixed economy. And then someone pops up and they point a finger one way and say the collapse is coming from the left or the problems coming from the right and then you have people coaxed into going the wrong way. It confuses things. Because we mix matters of economics in with matters of law and vice versa. For instance, at the current moment a government official could knock on my door and say "Your house is being taken by the government, we will pay you for it, and we're building a mega mall here." or a theater. The courts here, as I think they do most places, operate predominantly off of past rulings. If it has been ruled in your favor in the past it is bound that it will be done again, if not then it wont be.
 

zer0

Member
Possibly, but I'd prefer not to mix them knowingly at least.
Look at the crap that comes from people voting with their religious views in some areas of the world, after all.


;)
I totally agree man. When it comes to religion and politics, it's like gasoline and fire.
 

zer0

Member
I separate my political views from my religious views, because politics need to stick with the main standard ethics and morals (no killing, stealing, etc.), whereas I have my own standard that I do not have the right to impose on others. I'm kind of a collectivist left-leaner.

Therefore, religiously, I'm against abortion, but politically, I'm pro-choice. After all, I'm anti-killing bugs if it can be avoided, but I'm not going to support a law that forbids people from killing bugs.

The only thing collectivist about what you just said is "I'm kind of a collectivist left-leaner". Lol. Everything else was completely individualism... What aspects of collectivism do you lean towards?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm sure you came to this thought individually? ;) My worst vice is that I am a word picker.


Be at ease. But no, I don't really think I did. My mindset is very much one of seeing each and every person as a stance in an endless flow of influences and inheritances.

My thoughts are what circunstances make of them. And while my decisions and choices are part of those circunstances, they are never truly separated from them.

What exactly does that mean?

That I believe we have too many people and too little support structure for them, I guess. I wish people had less children and that families were looser and more caring. And I am at least a bit sad that demographic levels and economic disparities just keep rising.


I am very much a fan of the notion of social contract. Personal wealth is definitely not a right to be warranted by the government, or by anyone really. Welfare is a good thing.

What do you mean by personal wealth is definitely not a right to be warranted by the government?


That could come a bit clearer, for sure.

What I mean is that I don't much like to realize that while people are born much the same, their circunstances are often wildly different and leave them marks that have no true relation to their individual merits or efforts. People aren't born in poor or unloving families out of personal fault, yet they pay for it all the same. I see the conscious decision to change that reality as a major part of our duties, both social and religious.

To put it in another way, I live in a country where many people have a belief that we somehow "earned" whichever birth circunstances we had. I make a point of denying support to such a view.


Does Utilitarianism (in the ethical sense) count?

Count for what? It can get kind of scary when you say "That which is most useful is most good" Because I personally would like to know who is defining useful and useful towards what exactly?


And you are quite correct. It is indeed scary, and defining the criteria and taking responsibility for them is IMO a major, permanent challenge.

I see that as a personal responsibility, an important component of moral character: the sincere attempt of developing moral awareness and wisdom.

There are many things which are useful for driving a car that are not necessarily useful for making a pie
. There are many people who are useful in developing a piano that are not useful in developing a car. Usefulness is just as subjective if not more so than good and bad.

To a point. Our situations and circunstances are so deeply inter-related that it is not really all that hard to notice patterns and opportunities and realize which choices are ultimately more socially and ethically sound. Choosing one's goals is not very arbitrary. Or at least, it doesn't have to be. All it takes is daring to notice what one's social environment demands.


For instance there tends to be a fairly universal sense of what is good and what is bad. If someone is killing people most people see it as bad. But there is not a universal sense of usefulness. For instance, I would be perfectly happy living in a world without sports. I have on many occasion considered them useless.


It is certainly possible to select subject matters that are not of clear moral relevance. But the point is that it is fairly easy to select others that have such relevance, and to dedicate as much of our time and effort to them as we wish. In a practical sense, that is quite enough.

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Whatever lies between the right and left. I'm an advocate of compromise of which my state recently did in regards to passing a rare on time budget which was signed before the deadline.

Sometimes I will vote Republican

Sometimes Democrat

Sometimes neither or not at all.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I separate my political views from my religious views, because politics need to stick with the main standard ethics and morals (no killing, stealing, etc.), whereas I have my own standard that I do not have the right to impose on others.

Separating one's own religious views from the political ones?

Interesting. I don't feel that I really believe I can do that, or should try to. It never quite occurred to me that anyone would.

Sure, we shouldn't impose our values on others. But that is IMO very different from having political and religious views that are not quite compatible with each other.
 

zer0

Member
[/color]

Be at ease. But no, I don't really think I did. My mindset is very much one of seeing each and every person as a stance in an endless flow of influences and inheritances.

Now don't you believe that the culmination of those influences for every person are different in one form or another? For instance if you took all of my influences out and put them in a bucket and all of yours out and put them in a bucket, would we see two buckets of the same thing? Now this is regardless of what influenced my influences because when you get to that point you have already dismissed the individual.

My thoughts are what circunstances make of them. And while my decisions and choices are part of those circunstances, they are never truly separated from them.

Yes but are those circumstances not your circumstances?
For instance say my current circumstance is me sitting on a bus. Now of course you are correct, me sitting on a bus thinks differently then me parachuting out of an airplane at 20k feet but there still remains one problem. If I am sitting on a bus and you are on the same bus and I am sitting on the right side and you the left and it just so happens that the right side gets hit by a train and I die but you live. I have died because of my circumstances and you have lived because of your circumstances. Your circumstances are, just as your thoughts, exclusive to you. There is no single person with the same thoughts or circumstances at you at any given time.

That I believe we have too many people and too little support structure for them, I guess. I wish people had less children and that families were looser and more caring. And I am at least a bit sad that demographic levels and economic disparities just keep rising.

Actually, It's interesting that people are having less children now than ever before. The only problem is that the descendents of the people who had a bunch of children a long time ago are those people. So we have a BUNCH of people having less children.

[/color]
That could come a bit clearer, for sure.

What I mean is that I don't much like to realize that while people are born much the same, their circunstances are often wildly different and leave them marks that have no true relation to their individual merits or efforts. People aren't born in poor or unloving families out of personal fault, yet they pay for it all the same. I see the conscious decision to change that reality as a major part of our duties, both social and religious.

More often than not the most successful are the people who have come from the worst. My grandfather grew up in a family of 8 brothers and sisters and a single mom. He was the oldest of all of his siblings. It was a poor family, in a poor farming town and a place without much worth. My grandfather decided he was going to get out of there, he graduated highschool the top of his class while holding a job so that he could bring home food for his family and he then went to college and studies Nuclear Physics. After college he joined the Navy and made ships for them. After that he consulted the people who made ships for them. It is overcoming our limitations which gives birth to our brilliance.

I have only one problem with the Buddha's philosophy, and it has nothing to do with him, but rather the interpretation of his philosophy. The Buddha never said that suffering was bad. He never said that. Much rather he said that life is suffering. And he said further that the cause of suffering is attachment. The sad thing about life is that no matter how bad things are people can remain attached to those bad things, and they often do. Instead of changing their situation they would rather sit and remain attached to it.

To put it in another way, I live in a country where many people have a belief that we somehow "earned" whichever birth circunstances we had. I make a point of denying support to such a view.

I could see how you would deny that. On the cover it seems a terrible philosophy. But in the end it is correct. My mind, my body, my disorders and the problems that I have are all a result of the people I have come from. Also my standing in life. My social status. My geographical location. They are all based on actions made by my ancestors and I accept that. And that is what people have to recognize is that what they do now, decides for generations how their descendants will live.

[/color]
And you are quite correct. It is indeed scary, and defining the criteria and taking responsibility for them is IMO a major, permanent challenge.

I see that as a personal responsibility, an important component of moral character: the sincere attempt of developing moral awareness and wisdom.

My only problem is that all of the societies and countries which have done things similar to this have at the same time killed a lot of people.

To a point. Our situations and circunstances are so deeply inter-related that it is not really all that hard to notice patterns and opportunities and realize which choices are ultimately more socially and ethically sound. Choosing one's goals is not very arbitrary. Or at least, it doesn't have to be. All it takes is daring to notice what one's social environment demands.


It is certainly possible to select subject matters that are not of clear moral relevance. But the point is that it is fairly easy to select others that have such relevance, and to dedicate as much of our time and effort to them as we wish. In a practical sense, that is quite enough.

I understand what you mean here, but in the end, don't you believe that we are all still individual pieces of that? For instance a clock is only a clock because of the individual pieces which make it up. Or maybe a solar system is a solar system because of the individual planets which make it up. And more relative a species is a species because of the individual animals which make it up. There is the individual, and then there is the pack. You have to ask if you would rather die for the individual or for the pack. I can't recall who said it but who ever it was they had a point "You can't meet the demands of yourself and your peers at the same time." You cannot forget that in being 'selfless' you are permitting others to be selfish.
 

zer0

Member
Whatever lies between the right and left. I'm an advocate of compromise of which my state recently did in regards to passing a rare on time budget which was signed before the deadline.

Sometimes I will vote Republican

Sometimes Democrat

Sometimes neither or not at all.

Well, I suppose I phrased the OP incorrectly. I'm more looking for a socio-economic affiliation being collectivism or individualism. Do you believe that everything should be left up to the individual or that there should be an intervention of the collective. For instance bailing companies out and taxing people for money to give other people money etc.
are collectivism. Telling companies tough luck you shouldn't have been an idiot is individualism (at a very blown up level). Ironically both the decisions result in very similar things.


For instance, the collectivist says bail them out because if they fail it will cost a lot of people their money and their social stability, so the Gov't taxes the people and bails them out as a result a lot of people lost money and social stability. The individualist says let them collapse and they do and everyone who invested in them and worked for them loses money and social status. It's a choice between letting a few hurt to letting many hurt. In individualist societies one suffers from his individual bad choices while in collective societies one suffers from the bad choices of the collective and anyone in it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Now don't you believe that the culmination of those influences for every person are different in one form or another? For instance if you took all of my influences out and put them in a bucket and all of yours out and put them in a bucket, would we see two buckets of the same thing? Now this is regardless of what influenced my influences because when you get to that point you have already dismissed the individual.

I don't believe in buckets.


Yes but are those circumstances not your circumstances? For instance say my current circumstance is me sitting on a bus. Now of course you are correct, me sitting on a bus thinks differently then me parachuting out of an airplane at 20k feet but there still remains one problem. If I am sitting on a bus and you are on the same bus and I am sitting on the right side and you the left and it just so happens that the right side gets hit by a train and I die but you live. I have died because of my circumstances and you have lived because of your circumstances. Your circumstances are, just as your thoughts, exclusive to you. There is no single person with the same thoughts or circumstances at you at any given time.

That is much like no two snow crytals or specks of sand being exactly the same. And just as significant IMO. Which is to say, not much. Not much at all.


Actually, It's interesting that people are having less children now than ever before. The only problem is that the descendents of the people who had a bunch of children a long time ago are those people. So we have a BUNCH of people having less children.

There is a bit more to it, too. Poorer people have more children, for instance.



More often than not the most successful are the people who have come from the worst.

I beg to differ. I know some examples of what you mean. But they are definitely exceptions.


My grandfather grew up in a family of 8 brothers and sisters and a single mom. He was the oldest of all of his siblings. It was a poor family, in a poor farming town and a place without much worth. My grandfather decided he was going to get out of there, he graduated highschool the top of his class while holding a job so that he could bring home food for his family and he then went to college and studies Nuclear Physics. After college he joined the Navy and made ships for them. After that he consulted the people who made ships for them. It is overcoming our limitations which gives birth to our brilliance.

There is something to that. But it is still paying dearly to overcome disparities that ought not to even exist to such an extent in the first place.


I have only one problem with the Buddha's philosophy, and it has nothing to do with him, but rather the interpretation of his philosophy. The Buddha never said that suffering was bad. He never said that. Much rather he said that life is suffering. And he said further that the cause of suffering is attachment. The sad thing about life is that no matter how bad things are people can remain attached to those bad things, and they often do. Instead of changing their situation they would rather sit and remain attached to it.

Not sure what you mean here.


I could see how you would deny that. On the cover it seems a terrible philosophy. But in the end it is correct.

Nope. It is an obscene, childish, hypocritical, destructive philosophy. I hate and despise it with a passion.



My mind, my body, my disorders and the problems that I have are all a result of the people I have come from. Also my standing in life. My social status. My geographical location. They are all based on actions made by my ancestors and I accept that. And that is what people have to recognize is that what they do now, decides for generations how their descendants will live.

Rather it influences them. There are limits to that influence. It is not absolute.

But haven't you just contradicted yourself?

My only problem is that all of the societies and countries which have done things similar to this have at the same time killed a lot of people.

Such as? And have the numbers reached anything approaching the suffering and death caused by the countries and societies that did not even try?



I understand what you mean here, but in the end, don't you believe that we are all still individual pieces of that? For instance a clock is only a clock because of the individual pieces which make it up. Or maybe a solar system is a solar system because of the individual planets which make it up. And more relative a species is a species because of the individual animals which make it up. There is the individual, and then there is the pack. You have to ask if you would rather die for the individual or for the pack. I can't recall who said it but who ever it was they had a point "You can't meet the demands of yourself and your peers at the same time." You cannot forget that in being 'selfless' you are permitting others to be selfish.

We are individuals because we haven't really learned better. It does not follow that we can't lear better.

Not sure I understand your point here, either.
 

zer0

Member
I don't believe in buckets.




That is much like no two snow crytals or specks of sand being exactly the same. And just as significant IMO. Which is to say, not much. Not much at all.




There is a bit more to it, too. Poorer people have more children, for instance.

You're looking at it too statistically and forgetting this is more than numbers and words. As you go from rich to poor you go from few to many to more. Of course the poor have more children, there are more poor. Or do you have a statistic which says poor families are larger than rich families.


I beg to differ. I know some examples of what you mean. But they are definitely exceptions.


There is something to that. But it is still paying dearly to overcome disparities that ought not to even exist to such an extent in the first place.

Why should the disparities not exist? Just because they feel bad? If tomorrow morning I stopped believing that the feeling of extreme pain was bad and that I should avoid things which cause it, how long do you think I would live? Disparity is the pain of a species man. Suffering is the pain of a species. We suffer so that we know that we should not do that and we tell our kids don't do that and we grow as a species. Ridding us of disparities is not possible because the lack of suffering would cause ignorance and ignorance as the Buddha said causes suffering. Do you not see this?

Not sure what you mean here.

( I KNOW )
I mean if my grandpa never dug himself out of the hole and did what he had to do and he just stayed poor in his poor lifestyle that is because he was attached to what caused him to be poor. People suffer man. Animals suffer. All living things suffer. This mechanism is key to our survival. This is why I can't believe in that goody-too-shoo heaven philosophy that we die and go to a place where there is no bad. That is not possible. Pain and Pleasure require one another. Pleasure recieves its value from pain. Joy gains its value from suffering. If there is no suffering, what purpose have we to seek out joy? If there is no disparity, what purpose do we have to seek something more than what we have? The progress of human civilization and man-kind depends on it to suffer. Suffering and disparity is the lion chasing us. If you take it away we will stop running, lie on our side, and slowly die. It would be like opium addiction.

To rid the world of disparity is to forfeit the Buddha's most famous teaching, the middle way.




Nope. It is an obscene, childish, hypocritical, destructive philosophy. I hate and despise it with a passion.

Rather it influences them. There are limits to that influence. It is not absolute.

But haven't you just contradicted yourself?

How so?

Such as? And have the numbers reached anything approaching the suffering and death caused by the countries and societies that did not even try?

Stalin, Hitler, Mao? They all operated off of the presumption that what is most useful is most good. In that they decided that Jews, Religious people, musicians, artists, political activists and so on were not useful and therefore were not good and they killed them. I would uhhh... Rather not play god and selectively exterminate people for how useful I think they are. I would rather nature select which people are most useful to society based on how demanded their profession or talent is.

We are individuals because we haven't really learned better. It does not follow that we can't lear better.


Not sure I understand your point here, either.

You do not understand that we are very simply individual parts of a greater existence? You have to see not only the whole picture but also the individual colors and images that make it up. A picture of a horse with no horse is merely a picture my friend. A world of living things is not a world of living things without individual living things. Those living things make up a greater thing but they are still in their own essence, at the end of the day, individual parts of that greater thing. For instance the human body. The human body is one thing. But it is made up of many things and they are all essential to making it a human body.

Why is it that you are a Buddhist? Buddhism is a religion of self-realization. Direct experience. The ego which is spoken of in Buddhism is not to be confused with the self. The ego is that self which can be sensed from the outside the self is that which can be found only deep within. The self is that which perceives. Buddhism is about learning to accept the self. Consider this. The Buddha did not become enlightened by watching others. He did not become enlightened by watching how others and him interact. Instead he became enlightened by watching his own mind.

That is the basis of all Eastern Philosophy and religion. The study of the self.
It is Western philosophy and religions which first studied the outside world. It is the Western religions which preach collectivism. Christ referred to people as sheep. In Western religions there is often but 1 god or a series of authoritarian Gods, who is/are lord of all and you cannot disobey them and you cannot reach their level or be as good as them. Those who disobey burn in hell. In the West man is born sinful. In the East man is born pure and all can attain the level of god or the universe or the Buddha through individual effort.

The more I have read the Buddhist and Hindu religions the more I have found that they are more about the self than most people think. The idea of selflessness which the West projects on them is a slight bit inaccurate. Are Buddhist monks selfless? Men who leave their family and friends and life to live in a monastery off of others charity? In peace? Leaving their friends and family to suffer without them? I find it hard to say that this is selfless. I am not saying anything bad about the Buddhist religion, don't get me wrong. I am Buddhist. I'm just saying it is a little different than most people perceive it.
 
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