Which verse?
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A question about the honesty of the intelligence claims to be God!
- Thread starter Raleigh
- Start date
Which verse?
I don't see why, humans mathematically code computers and all sorts of things, talk about miracles is just talk, and if people are receiving revelation from God it seems to me more likely that they are receiving their share of the light heavily coloured by the lens of human interpretation.
I believe you have no evidence to the contrary.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Excerpt from Raleigh's Post: " Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God."
This is not as to how the things happened.
When G-d has a Converse with a person, the person knows without a doubt that G-d/Allah is talking to him or he is talking to G-d/Allah, for sure and with certainty.
Muhammad did not invent the word Allah, the Meccan Arabians believed in Allah, they only worshiped idols as the intercessors to Him, out of their superstitions. Muhammad"s father's name was Abdullah (Abd-Allah) meaning the Servant of Allah.
Quran mentions as to how Allah had a Converse with Moses:
[20:9] اَللّٰہُ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّا ہُوَ ؕ لَہُ الۡاَسۡمَآءُ الۡحُسۡنٰی ﴿۹﴾
Allah — there is no God but He. His are the most beautiful names.
20:10] وَ ہَلۡ اَتٰٮکَ حَدِیۡثُ مُوۡسٰی ۘ﴿۱۰﴾
And has the story of Moses come to thee?
20:11] اِذۡ رَاٰ نَارًا فَقَالَ لِاَہۡلِہِ امۡکُثُوۡۤا اِنِّیۡۤ اٰنَسۡتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّیۡۤ اٰتِیۡکُمۡ مِّنۡہَا بِقَبَسٍ اَوۡ اَجِدُ عَلَی النَّارِ ہُدًی ﴿۱۱﴾
When he saw a fire, he said to his family, ‘Tarry ye, I perceive a fire; perhaps I may bring you a brand therefrom or find guidance at the fire.’
20:12] فَلَمَّاۤ اَتٰٮہَا نُوۡدِیَ یٰمُوۡسٰی ﴿ؕ۱۲﴾
And when he came to it, he was called by a voice, ‘O Moses,
20:13]
اِنِّیۡۤ اَنَا رَبُّکَ فَاخۡلَعۡ نَعۡلَیۡکَ ۚ اِنَّکَ بِالۡوَادِ الۡمُقَدَّسِ طُوًی ﴿ؕ۱۳﴾
‘Verily, I am thy Lord. So take off thy shoes; for thou art in the sacred Valley of Tuwa.
20:14] وَ اَنَا اخۡتَرۡتُکَ فَاسۡتَمِعۡ لِمَا یُوۡحٰی ﴿۱۴﴾
‘And I have chosen thee; so hearken to what is revealed.
20:15] اِنَّنِیۡۤ اَنَا اللّٰہُ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّاۤ اَنَا فَاعۡبُدۡنِیۡ ۙ وَ اَقِمِ الصَّلٰوۃَ لِذِکۡرِیۡ ﴿۱۵﴾
‘Verily, I am Allah; there is no God beside Me. So serve Me, and observe Prayer for My remembrance.
20:16] اِنَّ السَّاعَۃَ اٰتِیَۃٌ اَکَادُ اُخۡفِیۡہَا لِتُجۡزٰی کُلُّ نَفۡسٍۭ بِمَا تَسۡعٰی ﴿۱۶﴾
‘Surely, the Hour is coming; I am going to manifest it, that every soul may be recompensed for its endeavour.
20:17] فَلَا یَصُدَّنَّکَ عَنۡہَا مَنۡ لَّا یُؤۡمِنُ بِہَا وَ اتَّبَعَ ہَوٰٮہُ فَتَرۡدٰی ﴿۱۷﴾
‘So let not him who believes not therein and follows his own evil inclinations, turn thee away therefrom, lest thou perish.
20:18] وَ مَا تِلۡکَ بِیَمِیۡنِکَ یٰمُوۡسٰی ﴿۱۸﴾
‘And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?’
20:19] قَالَ ہِیَ عَصَایَ ۚ اَتَوَکَّوٴُا عَلَیۡہَا وَ اَہُشُّ بِہَا عَلٰی غَنَمِیۡ وَ لِیَ فِیۡہَا مَاٰرِبُ اُخۡرٰی ﴿۱۹﴾
He replied, ‘This is my rod, I lean on it, and beat down therewith leaves for my sheep, and I have also other uses for it.’
20:20] قَالَ اَلۡقِہَا یٰمُوۡسٰی ﴿۲۰﴾
He said, ‘Cast it down, O Moses.’
20:21] فَاَلۡقٰہَا فَاِذَا ہِیَ حَیَّۃٌ تَسۡعٰی ﴿۲۱﴾
So he cast it down, and behold! it was a serpent running.
20:22] قَالَ خُذۡہَا وَ لَا تَخَفۡ ٝ سَنُعِیۡدُہَا سِیۡرَتَہَا الۡاُوۡلٰی ﴿۲۲﴾
God said, ‘Catch hold of it, and fear not. We shall restore it to its former condition.
20:23] وَ اضۡمُمۡ یَدَکَ اِلٰی جَنَاحِکَ تَخۡرُجۡ بَیۡضَآءَ مِنۡ غَیۡرِ سُوۡٓءٍ اٰیَۃً اُخۡرٰی ﴿ۙ۲۳﴾
‘And draw thy hand close under thy armpit. It shall come forth white, without any disease — another Sign,
20:24] لِنُرِیَکَ مِنۡ اٰیٰتِنَا الۡکُبۡرٰی ﴿ۚ۲۴﴾
‘That We may show thee some of Our greater Signs.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 20: TaHa
So, it is a direct Converse of G-d with the Messenger of G-d in which a dialogue takes place and the Messenger has no doubt about it, please. Right friend, please?
Regards
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Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad
Post #272
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John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Son of God was a title, not that God actually had a physical son as it says in the Bible God is Spirit. So we can all be sons of God. It wasn’t a title confined to Christ only. It is tye description of the closeness of a relationship as a father to a son, nothing else.
John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God corrected this mistaken concept of son of God by Christians through the Revelation of the Quran to Prophet Muhammad.
Muhammad in the Bible
Muhammad was prophesied in many places in the Old and New Testaments but the Christians still have not understood, so consider Muhammad false.
Satan
Satan does not exist. It is a metaphor used to portray our ego and selfish inclinations or lower self. The devil represents ego and the angel represents our Higher Self. But concepts such as ego would have been difficult to grasp those days so metaphors were used.
Freedom of belief
God does not force truth upon man as it is said in the Quran “there is no compulsion in religion”.
Complications
God has not complicated anything. Who are the very first ones to oppose any Prophet God sends? The religious leaders. It is they who history shows created the wars and hatred between faiths and opposed both Christ and Muhammad.
Had they accepted these Prophets, we would now all be living in peace. But we followed these leaders and that’s what complicated things.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Excerpt from the post of friend @Raleigh " But the same question applies to Christianity as well."
4 Gospels don't have, I understand, any first person Converse of G-d/Allah/Jehovah with Jesus. The 4 Gospels is all based on third person narration reported by the anonymous writers named after the Disciples just for credulity. To give one a taste of the direct Converse of G-d with a Messenger, I will repeat one of my earlier posts in the RF, one may view my other post in that thread if one likes:
Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad
"Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word "say." "
Quran is authored by G-d as per the criterion suggested by our Christian friend @Muffled in post #97 in this thread . G-d tells Muhammad with the word "say" and or "قُلۡ" in Arabic original language and I have quoted many such verses in my previous posts .
Yet there are other styles (many of them) that depict that the Converse is direct from G-d with Muhammad. Since I daily read some portion of Quran(1/120) very early in the morning, so I will be quoting as I observe them while I read Quran. The words "اَلَمۡ تَرَ" or "Dost thou" is another style of direct address to Muhammad by G-d. And "یٰۤاَیُّہَا النَّبِیُّ" or "O thou Prophet" is yet another one:
[33:17]قُلۡ لَّنۡ یَّنۡفَعَکُمُ الۡفِرَارُ اِنۡ فَرَرۡتُمۡ مِّنَ الۡمَوۡتِ اَوِ الۡقَتۡلِ وَ اِذًا لَّا تُمَتَّعُوۡنَ اِلَّا قَلِیۡلًا ﴿۱۷﴾
Say, ‘Flight shall not avail you if you flee from death or slaughter; and even then you will enjoy but a little.’
[33:18]قُلۡ مَنۡ ذَا الَّذِیۡ یَعۡصِمُکُمۡ مِّنَ اللّٰہِ اِنۡ اَرَادَ بِکُمۡ سُوۡٓءًا اَوۡ اَرَادَ بِکُمۡ رَحۡمَۃً ؕ وَ لَا یَجِدُوۡنَ لَہُمۡ مِّنۡ دُوۡنِ اللّٰہِ وَلِیًّا وَّ لَا نَصِیۡرًا ﴿۱۸﴾
Say, ‘Who is it that can save you against Allah if it be His wish to do you harm or if it be His wish to show you mercy?’ And they will not find for themselves any friend or helper other than Allah.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 32: As-Sajdah
Right, please?
For the context of the above verses , please, access the above link.
- Is there any such verse in the Torah of the Judaism where G-d has directly addressed Moses, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
- Is there any such verse in the Bible of the Christianity where G-d (not Jesus, as Jesus was never god or son of god) has directly addressed Jesus, please?If yes, please quote it here. Right, please?
- Is there any such verse in Kitab-i-Iqan by Bahaullah (where G-d has directly spoken to Bahaullah, Bahaullah was never a god), there cannot be any verse as G-d did not speak to Bahaullah directly? If there is any, please quote it here. Right, please?
- Kitab-i-Iqan was written by Bahaullah in 1862 (not revealed by G-d ) and the Covenant was taken by Bahaullah (without any direct Converse/Commandment of G-d, as I understand) in 1863. Therefore, if there had been any direct Converse from G-d Bahaullah would have mentioned it in Kitab-i-Iqan. In the Pre-Covenant period, Kitab-i-Iqan is the only core book of Bahaullah. Right,please?
____________
- I observe that Quran right from its start to its end is a direct Converse and in a sense a continuous dialogue between G-d and Muhammad providing live guidance, and through Muhammad to his companions, to the other people of his time and the world at large and for all times to come to all humanity. Right, please?
- "یٰۤاَیُّہَا الرَّسُوۡلُ " translated in English with the words "O Messenger" is another style, please refer my post #243 .
- "وَ لَوۡ تَرٰۤی "/ "If only thou couldst see" as mentioned in post #255.
- Another mode of direct Converse is direct commandment as in the verse [32:31] "فَاَعۡرِضۡ" , "وَ انۡتَظِرۡ" So turn away from them, and wait #261.
noone has the right to kill people just for believeing differently.
If God created 10 religions, this doesn't mean, everyone is entitled to kill the adherents of the other 9.
According to the Bible, Jewish leaders did in fact know that Jesus was the son.
They killed him because of it.
See Mark 12:7, the tenants are the Jewish leaders, in my view.
If you analyze the codings that can be seen in the Bible and the Quran and even the reported experiences, we can't find a satisfying explanation to explain the reason behind these human beliefs. When it comes to miracles, yea, miracles are pointless things that people discuss quite often. I see that they miss the big picture by doing so.
Actually, it doesn't matter when God/Gabriel revealed the information about Jesus. The main point is that Allah is responsible for the religious beliefs that Christian leaders/people were having at that time(If we take Allah as the true God). Because the Quran says that Jesus was a prophet sent by Allah. Therefore, even if Christian leaders/people got confused later he should still make a logical/meaningful attempt to resolve the issue. But based on reported events, we can see that Allah totally neglected the issue. And instead of fixing it, he ended up creating another religion in the world by spending 22/23 years(he had enough time to fix it during this time). Because of his act, his honesty is in question. This is an apparent issue. This is why I made the following statement earlier:
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Meaning, whatever Christian leaders believe, is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders(till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years(had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst. Cause because of the Quran, now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs.
Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?
Still, these explanations do not answer the issue that I pointed out:
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Let's assume that the father of Jesus is the God and God sent his son to Earth to help humanity 2000+ years ago. But now the question is why didn't he speak to Jewish leaders and tell them that he is sending his son to Earth? Why this is an issue? Because of the reported events, we know that Christianity is based on the Hebrew Bible and Christians believe that Hebrew Bible has the word of God (the word of the father of Jesus). Therefore, we can say that either father of Jesus (God) has spoken to Jewish people or at least we can say that the beliefs of Jewish leaders/people had when Jesus was on Earth were due to the actions performed by the father of Jesus(God). Therefore, the father of Jesus (God) should be responsible for the religious belief that Jewish leaders/people were having at that time (if we consider this line of thinking).
Although the father of Jesus (God) knew that the beliefs of Jewish leaders/people (God should know the cause of confusion), he did not say a word to Jewish leaders/people; and the intelligence claims to be God completely neglected the issue or did not make any logical/meaningful effort to fix the issue (If God was thinking that just by talking to Jesus directly and/or Jesus showing miracles to people would be enough for Jewish people to know that God has sent a prophet or his son to Earth, that's bad judgment. And that implies the intelligence claims to be God who communicated with Jesus had no clue how to resolve complicated human issues). Overall, the story of Jesus tells that, instead of God fixing the issue—by sending his son to Earth—he ended up creating another religion on Earth (His actions have already created Judaism by this time). By doing so, he made the situation worst. Because now Jewish people and Christian people even found reasons to argue and even to kill each other based on religious beliefs. Who is responsible? The intelligence claims to be God (or the father of Jesus). Because of these issues, either we have to say that the intelligence claims to be God has no knowledge or critical thinking ability to resolve human issues or if not we were communicating with an intelligence who deceived our civilization. If not, what reasoning can be used to explain this?
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In my opinion your post is a combination of misinformation and circular claims, not impressive as post#26 and #27 of the thread Quotes Series: From Quran- Authored by G-d not by Muhammad amply demonstrates.
Right please?
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"noone has the right to kill people just for believeing differently. - This is true, but I think at the end of the day we have to accept the reality as it is. And when we finding a solution to a problem, that has to consider the reality. There are people on Earth who do good things and there are people who do things that cannot be accepted. However, even if we take a serial killer, they must have done so many good things in their lives, and on the other hand, people that we take as good must have done things that cannot be accepted at times. I think that's human nature. If an intelligence trying to fix human conflicts, the intelligence should understand these issues better than any of us. And just by writing a book and showing miracles, we cannot fix these issues. And especially we know that when people start believing in a religion, they gravitate towards, fighting/killing. The God of Christianity and Allah clearly failed to see this. If you refer to the reply that I made to loverofhumanity, you would know the issue that I was pointing out.
The responsibility lies with the religious leaders who had become corrupt and materialistic, seeking only power and control. Had they believed their followers would have accepted Jesus. In every age, it is the religious leaders who oppose God and His Prophets.
According to the recorded events, they say that at the age of 30 Jesus started his ministry. Did God communicate any of these to Jewish leaders/people in a logical/meaningful way? Did God give clear reasoning for why the changes to the earlier doctrine? If God thinks that Jesus alone can go and explain this to Jewish leaders/people, then that would obviously fail. For instance, if I tell Christian leaders and Jewish leaders today that God is Leonardo (my father), and if I also tell them that Jesus is not the son of God and Yahweh is not the true God either, will they listen to me?
This is why I say that if Jesus is the son of God, then God did not make any logical/meaningful steps to explain any of these. That's a big issue. On the other hand, if Allah is the God, he also did not make any logical/meaningful steps to explain the controversies. This issue indirectly tells us that there's something wrong with Judaism as well.
What explanation could the learned Pharisees and Sadducees require when Peter, a simple fisherman, who couldn’t count to seven understood the station and reality of Christ?
The only thing necessary to understand Who Christ was, was a pure heart for it is written “blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God”. Had the people possessed a pure heart, no other explanation would have been required, yet without a pure heart, all the explanations in the world would never have changed them.
To see God rhetoric is not needed but a pure heart.
Perhaps that's not a good example. Here is the issue, if every human being on Earth have a nature of accepting anything told to them without critically analyzing (some people do), then Gods way of delivering his message can be easily spread in the community and people will quickly start believing the claim made by the intelligence claims to be God or even Jesus (We are living in a society that is subject to deception and exploitation, therefore, I think human beings should never have this kind of a mindset). However, human beings have a nature where they require convincing evidence to accept a claim made by another person/an intelligence (which is a good thing). Therefore, when an intelligence or God (if he exists) delivering his message, he should have a clear understanding of this nature of human beings and explain in a logical/meaningful way so they can analyze the claim. If God doesn't understand this, then God has an issue in understanding who human beings are.
He does but people reject it anyway.
Where can we find father of Jesus or God carrying out any logical/meaningful communication with Jewish leaders/Jewish people?
Without a pure heart no argument would have sufficed. Peter required no explanation.
The reason why you and I have this discussion is because of human failure. They failed to ask the right questions. They believed in claims made by others without needing an in-depth explanation. If people asked the right questions and if people needed proper explanations before accepting a claim, today we won't be seeing three Abrahamic religions on Earth. You would know that belief (an explanation is not required/faith), is actually one of the root causes of the problem that I addressed.
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A huge problem is that people blindly follow their leaders instead of using their own minds to determine the truth. So Jews were taught by their leaders Christ was false, Christians taught by their clergy Muhammad was not from God and Muslim leaders have turned their followers against believers in Baha’u’llah.
Whenever a new Prophet appears the previous religious leaders do everything in their power to destroy the new faith, seeing it as a threat to their power, dominance and control.
In this age, the hope is that the followers of all faiths will break free from corrupt religious leaders and become one by accepting all of God’s Messengers.