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A question About The Archangel Michael and the book of Jude

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by ThisShouldMakeSense, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    I've read on this site that some believe that the Archangel Michael is Jesus. However, some believe that Jesus is also God.
    This being so, would that make the Archangel, God? And if so, why is it that in Jude, Michael said to the devil 'May the Lord tell you to stop.'?

    Jude 1:9*(Worldwide English (New Testament))
    9At one time Michael the chief angel had a quarrel with the devil about who should have the body of Moses. But he did not dare to judge the devil and say wrong things about him. He said, `May the Lord tell you to stop'.

    (Some translations say 'May God rebuke you.')

    Why would he not dare to Judge the devil if Michael was Jesus and inturn Jesus was God? I hope my question makes some sense.
     
  2. njcl

    njcl Active Member

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    huh michael is jesus?.........what the hell books have you been reading?.michael is one of the chiefest angels,mighty in power,he though is subject to jesus,s commands as are all angels
     
  3. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,

    I have heard that before(about Jesus being Michael) and i think it is a Jehova's Witness belief(i am not positive though). I disagree with it. in my opinion it goes further into nonsensicalness with Jesus=Michael=God. God is God, Jesus was Jesus, and Michael is Michael.

    wa salaam
     
  4. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    ThisShouldMakeSense,

    True, I've heard that JWs believe Christ was St. Michael too. However, as JWs are Arians, they do not believe that Christ was God and so it is impossible to make the sort of equation you have made in the opening post.

    James
     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes ,the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel ​

     
  6. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Where? I've certainly never noticed it in my Bible.

    James
     
  7. njcl

    njcl Active Member

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    probably because its not there,michael = jesus........:eek:
     
  8. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well that's my reaction too, but I'd still like to know what it is JWs use to justify their belief. I'm genuinely intrigued.

    James
     
  9. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Hi there, this is an artical taken from the Awake magazine 2- 8- 02 on the bibles view point on michael



    The​
    Bible’s Answer





    Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term "archangel" in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.​

    Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of "the Lord Jesus" and "his powerful angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: "He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."—1 Peter 3:22.​

    While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel. In his letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul prophesied: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) In this scripture Jesus is described as having assumed his power as God’s Messianic King. Yet, he speaks with "an archangel’s voice." Note, too, that he has the power to raise the dead.​

    While on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said: "Young man, I say to you, Get up!" (Luke 7:14, 15) Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus "cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’" (John 11:43) But on these occasions, Jesus’ voice was the voice of a perfect man.​

    After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a "superior position" in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God’s trumpet sounded the call for "those who are dead in union with Christ" to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued "a commanding call," this time "with an archangel’s voice." It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call "with an archangel’s voice."​

    Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.

     
  10. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Nice one!
     
  11. njcl

    njcl Active Member

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    yes i concurr that michael is the greatest of the angels as signified by him taking hold of satan and throwing him into hell,id say there are equally or just below him angels of awesome power as described in revelations,can anybody tell me or hint at the size of our lord jesus christ as he is in heaven???
     
  12. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    he has great authority in the heavens
    The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’" Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the "time of distress" that is associated with Michael’s standing up. (Da 12:1) Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels.so he has great aurthority in the heavens because he has been made king of Gods kingdom in the heavens

     
  13. Harvster

    Harvster Member

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    In regards to the statement that there is only one arch-angel and that he is jesus, I believe that this can be refuted by the book of Enoch Chapter 20. I realise that this book is not a canonised text, however even as an apocaphitical source it still has realivance as it is considered a historical and accurate account. In this book it mentions 7 holy angels which are well documented as being the archangels. Refer to the following:
    THE BOOK OF ENOCH
    CHAPTER 20
    1,2 And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is
    3 over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
    4,5 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries. Michael, one
    6 of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. Saraqael,
    7 one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. Gabriel, one of the holy
    8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.


    Yes Jesus is the head over the angelic hosts, but the above mentioned angels are placed under Christ and the Father for the purposes mentioned above. I hope this helps.:)
     
  14. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Harvster,

    Yes, Enoch is worth considering. Not only is it referenced in the NT and by some Church Fathers, but it is actually part of at least one Biblical canon - that of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Many people seem not to realise that there is not one single canon of Scripture. The Protestant, Roman Catholic and Orthodox canons all vary and the Ethiopian canon is particularly different (quite a lot larger).

    James
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as "one of the chief princes," "the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people," and as "the archangel." (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means "Who Is Like God?" The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.

     
  16. Harvster

    Harvster Member

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    James, I quite agree with your stament and believe that it possibly could well of been included in most recognised cannons along with other numerous books if they had not been lost in the 11 century crusades. I do know that the actual individual book of Enoch that is sold states that it comes from the Ethiopian versions and is cross referenced with the few fragments that have been found of the original greek that was lost. I do agree with you that Jude references to this book.:)
     
  17. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    Interesting, the bible does use the Hebrew term "elohim" which can refer to the angels on many occasions. Is it possible that Jesus was the physical manifestation of Metatron and that is why he has powerful angels and why he might be "at the right hand of God"? It is Metatron that has authority over all angels, not Michael.
     
  18. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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  19. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    hi, there as my belief are only on the bible ,and not arccording to apocalyptic literature i feel that the bible reveals all we need to know about jesus and his angels :)
     
  20. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    is it ony a particular english translation of the bible that you use? I was using the bible in my reply, just the older Hebrew.
     
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