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A question About The Archangel Michael and the book of Jude

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by ThisShouldMakeSense, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    hi, am i right in saying that matatron is mentioned in other books but not the bible i do not regard those other books as inspired of God so do not give them much interest ,please correct me if matatron is mentioned in the bible i use many translations of the bible to compare
     
  2. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hello May..So Is Jesus Christ really and angel ? Would you please show me the Scriptures that plainly says Jesus is michael the Archangel? As far as I know or aware The word of God mentions " Michael" 5 times . 1- As one of the foremost princes [ Daniel 10:13 ] 2 The prince of Daniels people [ Daniel 10:21] 3- The great prince who is standing in behalf of [Daniels] people [Daniel 12:1] 4- The archangel who had a difference with the devil and was disputing about moses body " But did not dare to bring a Judgement to him on abusive terms . Jude 9, 5- A participant in heavenly conflict whe Michael and His angels battled with the dragon Rev 12:7 [NWT ].

    Which one of these verses say that "Michael" is Jesus Christ? Would one not have to read Scripture PLUS a Complicated Watchtower argument to come to that conclusion? Rather than merely being ONE OF the foremost princes, Jesus Christ is " LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS" [Rev 17:14 NWT] and is far above every goverment and authority and power and Lordship and every name named not only in this system of things but also in that is to come [Eph 1:21 NWT] and UNLIKE "Michael" who did not dare condem the devil with insulting words but said the LORD REBUKE YOU [JUDE 9 Todays English version] Jesus Christ displayed His Authority over the devil when he freely commanded him " Go away satan" [ mathew 4:10 NWT ].

    There is also another verse that doesn't use the name Michael but says that 2 The Lord himself will descend from Heaven with a commanding call, with an Archangels voice, and with Gods Trumpet [ 1Thess 4:16 NWT ] However the expression "with an archangels voice" Is simply like Gods trumpet, It will herald the coming of our Lord. Not that the Lord is a archangel.

    Remember that Angels were consistently refusing worship. [ Becareful, DO NOT DO THAT.....Worship God...Rev 22: 8:8 NWT..But the Fathers Command concerning His Son is " Let ALL Gods Angels worship him" [ Heb 1:6 ].

    Jesus is not Michael the Archangel...
     
  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    of coarse ,as one of Jehovahs witnesses i feel it is quite reasonable to see that the scriptures point to michael as the name of Jesus in heaven , but that is only my belief , every one to there own
    And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.(daniel 12;4)

     
  4. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi may, So your saying it is reasonable to think this way, but on the other hand are your saying it may be reasonable but there is really no clear evidence?..None of those verses stated say that Jesus is michael, to say otherwise is only speculation. Thankyou for replying.. :D
     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    which just goes to show that Jesus is not God because Jesus as Gods son ,did not override his postion, he left it up to the true God Jehovah to rebuke him.for only Jehovah has that authority i always find there is no contratiction when the correct meaning is applied to the bible
     
  6. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    To my knowledge he is not mentioned by name, but is referred to as "the angel of the Lord", the bible also mentions Gabriel as well.
    Thank you for the information :).
     
  7. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi May. You say that only Jehovah has that Authority yet in Mathew 28:18 says " And Jesus came up and spoke to them saying. ALL Authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on Earth. At Jesus transfiguration Mathew 17:5b This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased listen to him.
     
  8. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Jesus is the Son of God.

    I for one, am not into demoting him to the rank of Angel.

    There is a whole order of precedence for the angelic host which is far to complicated for me,but some people have attached great importance to it but I am not one of them.

    Terry
    ______________________________
    Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi May, the name Mchael as you know means who is like God!!!! According to wikipedia encyclopedia, The talmud renders his name who is like El [ God ] Literally means El's likeness. Micah is the shortened form of Micaiah or Michouhu. meaning " Who is like the Lord"..Going by your reasoning would this make Micah Jesus too?..
     
  10. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes you are correct all authority has been given himand we should listen to him.
    The very name Michael, asking as it does, "Who Is Like God?" points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator and never goes beyond his Godgiven authority

    Jesus Christ can be identified as Michael by comparing Jude 9 with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Revised Standard), where Jesus Christ’s command for the resurrection to begin is described as "the archangel’s call"; moreover, the name Michael means "Who Is Like God?," evidently indicating that Jesus is the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies

     
  11. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    At micah 5;2-4 Micah prophesied that a God-appointed ruler- one whose origin was from early times - will come out of Bethlehem so i think you know the answer to that question, the scriptures do not point to micah as being the son of God:D
     
  12. shandee64

    shandee64 Member

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    Not to forget that Michael is also mentioned in Daniel when he is visited by an Angel and the Angel refers to Michael being one of the archangels who came to assist him in battle. Couldn't be Jesus - he already won the battle and took away the keys so it has to be referring to the"angels who war " .
     
  13. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi May Thankyou as always for your response, We can agree that there is no-one like God by using the same question " Who is Like God " and the answer would be No-one, Do you agree with that ? If you do then there is " No- one like God...

    In Phillipian 2:5-11 We read Have this in your mind which was also in Christ Jesus Who Existing in the form Of God Did not consider it robbery to Be Equal with God But emptied Himself taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of men and being found in Human form He humbled Himself becoming obedient to Death, Yes the death of the cross Therefore God Highly Exhalted him and gave to Him the name which is above every name, That of the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those in Heaven, those on Earth, those under the Earth and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father..

    Col 2:9 For In Christ All the fullness of the Diety Lives in Bodily form..

    Col 1:15-16 Who is the Image of the invisible God The firstborn of every creature for by Him All things were created That are in heaven and on Earth Invisible and invisable.

    When the apostle Paul says that Christ is the Firstborn of all creation He does not mean that Christ was the first created being, for he goes on to explain that Jesus Christ Created everything Visable and inVisable Jesus Christ could not have created Himself.

    1Tim 3:16 And without Controversay Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh Justified in the Spirit Seen of angels, Preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, Recieved up into glory.

    The Old Testament
    Isa 40:3 The voice of him that cries in the wilderness
     
  14. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Sorry pressed wrong button..I shall start again.

    Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord make straight in the dessert a highway For our God [ Jehovah ]

    The New Testament
    For this is the one reffered to by Issaiah the prophet when he said the voice of the one crying in the wilderness make ready the way of the lord make his paths straight..[ Jesus came to Earth ]

    Old Testament
    Mal 4:5:6 Behold I am going to send to you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of our Lord 6 He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their Children and the hearts of the Children to their fathers, So that I will not Come and smite the land with a curse. [ Jehovah ]

    New Testament

    Luke 1:17 It is he who will go as a forerunner before him in the Spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts the hearts of the fathers back to the Children and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. [ Jesus ]

    Old Testament
    Isa 45:22-23 Turn to me and be saved All the ends of the earth For I am God and their is no other 23 I have sworn by MYSELF, The Word has gone forth from MY Mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to me every knee will bow, Every tongue will swear Allegiance. [ Jehovah ]

    New Testament

    Romans 14:11 For it is written " As I live says the Lord every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall give praise to God. [ Jesus ]

    Phil 2:10 So that at the name of Jesus Every knee will bow of those who are in heaven and on the Earth [ Jesus ]

    Old Testament
    Psalms 68:17:18 The Chariots of God are myriads, thousands apon thousdands the LORD is among them at Sinai, in Holiness 18 You have ascended on high, you have led captive your captives you have recieved giftes among men Even among the rebellious also that the Lord God may dwell here. [ Jehovah ]

    New Testament
    Eph 4:7-8 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's Gift 8 Therefore it says When He ascended on High, He led host a captive of captives And He gave gifts to men. [ Jesus]

    So " Who is Like God " No-one....Jesus is Jehovah..The word was with God and the word was God and it was the Word who became flesh and dwelled among us. If Jesus is not Jehovah, when did Jehovah come to Earth..Thankyou..
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    regarding(phillipians 2;5-11)
    Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father..............These verses are speaking about Jesus when he was in his pre-human time in the heavens with Jehovah , he was existing in Gods form in that he had a spirit body the same as Jehovah God is a spirit (john 4;24) so before he came to the earth as a man with a fleshly body ,he wasin the heavens with a spirit bodythe same as his fathers, but he(Jesus) was humble and obedient by taking on a mere human bodyand every thing else that went with it right up to death on a torture stake.Then after that ,God exalted him (Jesus)to a superior position. notice God exalted him , not himself ,also he was obedient,to be obedient someone must have asked him to do something ,he could not be obedient to himself could he.also it says that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God .notice to the glory of God







    (John 3:16) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.










    (1 John 4:9) By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.regarding (colossians 2;9)

    because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily





    KJ​
    reads: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·o´te·tos] bodily." (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: "It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." (AT, We, and CKW read "God’s nature," instead of "Godhead." Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)








    Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is "the fullness" that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it "pleased the Father" for this to be the case. NE says it was "by God’s own choice."​

    Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" and are urged to "live in him" and to be "rooted and built up in him and established in the faith." (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious "fulness" dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the "fulness" that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be "seated at the right hand of God."—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.





    According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·o´tes (the nominative form, from which the·o´te·tos is derived) means "divinity, divine nature." (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly "divinity," or of "divine nature," does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share "humanity" or "human nature" makes them coequal or all the same age ...........regarding colossians 1; 15-16

    The Bible calls Jesus "the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) Just think—Jehovah’s Son was in existence before the physical universe .Jesus had a part to play in everything else that was created after himself ,he was Jehovahs master worker

    then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,yes Jesus was beside his father Jehovah in the heavens and created every thing else

    This one was in [the] beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.(John 1;2)so when God says in the Genesis account let (us )make man in (our) image he is talking to his son









    (Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth."Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’(1 timothy 2;16)yes Jesus has a big part to play in the outworking of Jehovah Gods purpose[size=2]


    He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him(1 peter 3;22)[font=Arial][size=2]



    [left]


    [left](Psalm 110:1) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."[/left]

    [left][/left]

    [left](Acts 7:55) But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand,[/left]

    [left][/left]

    (Hebrews 10:12) But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God

    [/left][/size][left][/left][/font][left][/left][/size][left][/left]
    [font=Arial][size=2]

    [/size][/font]​














     
  16. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    Hi glasgowchick,
    I think you are getting a bit off topic. going into trinity a bit...anyhoo, as you asked May where it categorically stated that Michael is Jesus, i'd like to ask a similar question. show me where Jesus categorically says that he is God.

    and here's a thought. do you always need a person's name to identify them? Take for example when the police want a suspect of a crime. They may not have the name but they may have a description of them. And quite often the person can be identified by the description.
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    good post, i like that illustration
     
  18. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi again May and thankyou as always for your replies. To say that Jesus created Everything else is another story, But the diety of Christ is Clearly seen according to John in John 1:1. As For Colossians 1:19 By this statement Paul was refuting the Greek idea that jesus could not be human and divine at the same time. Christ was fully Human He was also fully divine. Christ has always been God and always will be God. When we have Christ we have All of God in Human form. We cant diminish any aspect of Christ- either his humanity or His divinity. I agree with what you are saying about Jesus in His PreHuman state what we don't agree on is that You believe that Jesus is Michael an archangel I believe that when John describes Who Jesus is in John 1:1 when he says that and depending on ones translation In the beguining the word already existed the word was with God and the word was God He existed in the begining with God God created everything through him and nothing was created except through Him. V14 and the word became human and made his home among us He was full of unfailing Love and faithfullness and we have seen his glory, the glory of the Fathers one and only Son. So If the Word was God Like John says he was and it was the Word became human? then Jesus must be God.QUOTE=may]regarding(phillipians 2;5-11)
    Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father..............These verses are speaking about Jesus when he was in his pre-human time in the heavens with Jehovah , he was existing in Gods form in that he had a spirit body the same as Jehovah God is a spirit (john 4;24) so before he came to the earth as a man with a fleshly body ,he wasin the heavens with a spirit bodythe same as his fathers, but he(Jesus) was humble and obedient by taking on a mere human bodyand every thing else that went with it right up to death on a torture stake.Then after that ,God exalted him (Jesus)to a superior position. notice God exalted him , not himself ,also he was obedient,to be obedient someone must have asked him to do something ,he could not be obedient to himself could he.also it says that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God .notice to the glory of God







    (John 3:16) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.










    (1 John 4:9) By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.regarding (colossians 2;9)

    because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily





    KJ​
    reads: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·o´te·tos] bodily." (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: "It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." (AT, We, and CKW read "God’s nature," instead of "Godhead." Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)








    Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is "the fullness" that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it "pleased the Father" for this to be the case. NE says it was "by God’s own choice."​

    Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" and are urged to "live in him" and to be "rooted and built up in him and established in the faith." (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious "fulness" dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the "fulness" that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be "seated at the right hand of God."—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.





    According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·o´tes (the nominative form, from which the·o´te·tos is derived) means "divinity, divine nature." (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly "divinity," or of "divine nature," does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share "humanity" or "human nature" makes them coequal or all the same age ...........regarding colossians 1; 15-16

    The Bible calls Jesus "the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15) Just think—Jehovah’s Son was in existence before the physical universe .Jesus had a part to play in everything else that was created after himself ,he was Jehovahs master worker

    then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,yes Jesus was beside his father Jehovah in the heavens and created every thing else

    This one was in [the] beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.(John 1;2)so when God says in the Genesis account let (us )make man in (our) image he is talking to his son









    (Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth."Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’(1 timothy 2;16)yes Jesus has a big part to play in the outworking of Jehovah Gods purpose[size=2]


    He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him(1 peter 3;22)[font=Arial][size=2]



    [left]


    [left](Psalm 110:1) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: "Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."[/left]

    [left][/left]

    [left](Acts 7:55) But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand,[/left]

    [left][/left]

    (Hebrews 10:12) But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God

    [/left][/size][left][/left][/font][left][/left][/size][left][/left]
    [font=Arial][size=2]

    [/size][/font]​














    [/QUOTE]
     
  19. ThisShouldMakeSense

    ThisShouldMakeSense Active Member

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    My question is, can someone be with someone and at the same time be that person? again, off topic...also, at John 17:3 it says 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.' think about that. really, really think. that would contradict a whole lot of stuff....
     
  20. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi TSMS, No I didn't mean to go into the trinity, But if thats what you got out of it then that's good, providing you believe in the trinity to start with, and if you don't that's even better if you could see that.
    I believe that the Scriptures are clear, First one has to ask who the word is? We know the word is Jesus..We know the Word was with God from the beguining and finally one doesn't need to be a Scientist to work out when John said the word was God..That is a clearer picture than Jesus being Michael don't you think ?. :D
     
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