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Featured A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by coconut theology, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Looking at Mss, and the vast evidence for this reading in 1 Timothy 3:16,

    1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

    why would you (and others) follow the NIV and NWT's choice to remove the word "God" and replace it with a nonsensical "He"?

    The NIV and NWT follow the same spirit:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3:16&version=NIV

    https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/1-timothy/3/

    The words do not occur in the following corrupted texts:

    Aleph (Sinaiticus), (A*, Alexandrinus), (C*??), D*, G-gr, F-gr, pc, Old Latin: ar, c, d, dem, div, f, g, mon, x, z, Vulgate, Syriac: Pes.hitta, Harclean; Coptic: Sahidic, Bohairic; Gothic, Armenian, Ethiopic​

    Here is the vast extant literature which has the text in it:

    "... Aleph-c, A-c, C-2, D-2, K, L, P
    Psi

    Cursives: MAJORITY, fam 13
    Old Latin: Vulgate-ms

    Also extant in 056, 061, 075, 0142, 0150, 0151, 0241. We have placed A and C on the revised side only because textual criticism insists in telling us that this is where they belong. In fact, that most careful of scholars, H. C. Hoskier believed the first hand palimpsest C read "God", and codex A, F.H.A. Scrivener wrote during the latter nineteenth century:

    Cod. A, however, I have examined at least twenty times within as many years ... seeing (as every one must see for himself) with Berriman and the earlier collators that Cod A read THEOS ... the evidence of Young, of Huish, of Mill, of Berriman and his friends, when the page was comparatively unworn, cannot thus be disposed of (Plain Introduction, pp 639, 640 note). ...

    ... According to Scrivener, it is quoted by some of the very earliest fathers as Ignatius (110), and Hippolytus (235). Of the more than 250 cursive manuscripts containing I Timothy, Theos is found." - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The A.V.; by Jack Moorman, pages 135

    Additionally:

    "... GREGORY OF NYSSA, Against Eunomius (III 5:101, 155, 176, 232) ..." - Early Church Fathers And The Authorized Version, by Jack Moorman, page 57

    Additionally:

    "... TEXT: "He was made apparent in the flesh"
    EVIDENCE: S* A* C* G 33 syr(pal) syr(p,h)? cop?
    TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV
    RANK: B

    NOTES: "God was made apparent in the flesh"
    EVIDENCE: Se A2 C2 Dc K L P Psi 81 104 614 630 1241 1739 1881 2495 Byz Lect
    TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn RSVn NASVn NIVn

    NOTES: "Which was made apparent in the flesh"
    EVIDENCE: D* lat vg syr(p,h)? cop?
    TRANSLATIONS: ASVn RSVn

    COMMENTS: The word "who" was changed to "which" by some copyists to refer to "mystery." In an older manuscript that does not have accents and breathing marks, all that is required to change the Greek word for "who" (OS) to the abbreviation for "God" (OS) is to add two marks. This happened to several manuscripts, apparently to give a definite subject to the following verbs. ..." - Textual Variants: 1 & 2 Timothy, Philemon
     
  2. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Looking at Mss, and the vast evidence for this reading in 1 Timothy 3:16,

    1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

    why would you (and others) follow the NIV and NWT's choice to remove the word "God" and replace it with a nonsensical "He"?

    The NIV and NWT follow the same spirit:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3:16&version=NIV

    https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/1-timothy/3/

    Additionally:

    "... Secondly, the textual evidence for the reading "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is massive. It is the reading found in the Majority of all remaining Greek manuscripts we have today. Of the 300 known Greek cursive copies we have of the epistle of Paul to Timothy 254 of them read "GOD was manifest in the flesh".

    This is also the reading found in Sinaiticus correction, A correction, C correction and D correction. Even among these 4, in their previously uncorrected forms, they disagreed with each other and none of them is grammatically correct. Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus and C used to read "who" (ὃς) and mss. D used to read "which" (ὃ) but neither reading is even good Greek grammar.

    There is NO Vaticanus reading because the Vatican manuscript is missing all of First and Second Timothy, as well as Titus, several chapters of Hebrews as well as the entire book of Revelation. In other words, ALL four of the so called 5 great uncial copies that contain this portion of the Scriptures were seen as being defective and were corrected very early on by Christian Scribes.

    "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is the reading of other uncial copies as well including K, L, P, Psi. It is the reading found in the early Byzantine Lectionaries, the Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions and is so quoted by numerous early Christian writers.

    In his book, The Revision Revised, Dean Burgon (pages 450, 454, 489-90) also cites the Georgian (6th century), Harkleian Syriac (616 AD) and the Slavonic (9th cent.) versions as reading "God." The fathers in support of this passage are as follows (Burgon, p 486-90):

    1st Century: Ignatius (90 AD); 2nd Century: Hippolytus (190 AD); 3rd Century: Apostolic Constitutions, Epistle ascribed to Dionysius of Alexandria (264 AD), Gregory Thaumaturgus; 4th Century: Basil the Great (355 AD), Chrysostom (380 AD), Didymus (325 AD), Diodorus (370 AD), Gregory of Nazianzus (355 AD), Gregory of Nyssa (370 AD). "Euthalian" chapter title of I Tim. 3, attesting to "God in the flesh."; 5th Century: Anon. citation in works of Athanasius (430 AD), Cyril of Alexandria (410 AD), Euthalius (458 AD), Macedonius 11(496 AD), Theodoret (420 AD); 6th Century: Severus, Bishop of Antioch (512 AD); 8th Century: Epiphanius of Catana (787 AD), John Damascene (730 AD), Theodorus Studita (790 AD); 10th Century: Ecumenius (990 AD); 11th Century: Theophylact (1077 AD); 12th Century: Euthymius (1116 AD).

    Hippolytus (170-236 A.D.) "God was manifested in the flesh." (Against the Heresies of Noetus I: 1:17), and Dionysius (3rd cent.) "For God was manifested in the flesh." (Conciliations I: 1:853)

    "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is also the reading of the Greek texts of Ximenes, Erasmus, Stephanus 1550, Beza 1598, Elzevir 1624, Scrivener 1894 and the Hodges and Farstad Majority Text Greek New Testament 1982. It IS the Reformation text. ..." - https://brandplucked.webs.com/1timothy316godorhe.htm

    Additionally:

    "... This alteration has been discussed exhaustively by Burgon (14) pp 101-5, 424-504, whose researches have been summarized by the TBS (58) "God was Manifest in the Flesh." See also Fuller, citing the TBS, (32) p 24A1. ...

    ... The most ancient Greek uncial in favour of "God" in 1 Tim. 3:16, is Codex A (5th cent.). Burgon (p 432-436) cites in detail the witnesses who attest to the horizontal stroke of "Theta" in "Theos" being clearly visible up to the mid 18th century. The TBS pamphlet provides an excellent Summary. In support of A are uncials K, L and P, ("Mosquensis," "Angelicus" and "Porphyrianus" resp.) all of the 9th century.

    The extant cursive copies of Paul's letters number 300, of which 254 (designated "Paul 1" to "Paul 301") contain 1 Tim. 3:16. Of these, no less than 252 read "God," in agreement with this passage. (The two exceptions, which have already been discussed, are "Paul 17" and "Paul 73," of which the latter is a doubtful witness.) Added to this favourable testimony are 29 out of 32 Lectionary copies from the Eastern Church, reaching back to earliest times t.e. before Aleph, which support the reading "God." (Burgon, p 478, declares the 3 exceptions to be "Western documents of suspicious character.")

    Burgon p 450, 454, 489-90. also cites the Georgian (6th century), Harkleian Syriac (616 AD) and the Slavonic (9th cent.) versions as reading "God." The fathers in support of this passage are as follows (Burgon, p 486-90):

    1st Century: Barnabus, Ignatius (90 AD); 2nd Century: Hippolytus (190 AD); 3rd Century: Apostolic Constitutions, Epistle ascribed to Dionysius of Alexandria (264 AD), Gregory Thaumaturgus; 4th Century: Basil the Great (355 AD), Chrysostom (380 AD), Didymus (325 AD), Diodorus (370 AD), Gregory of Nazianzus (355 AD), Gregory of Nyssa (370 AD). "Euthalian" chapter title of I Tim. 3, attesting to "God in the flesh."; 5th Century: Anon. citation in works of Athanasius (430 AD), Cyril of Alexandria (410 AD), Euthalius (458 AD), Macedonius 11(496 AD), Theodoret (420 AD); 6th Century: Severus, Bishop of Antioch (512 AD); 8th Century: Epiphanius of Catana (787 AD), John Damascene (730 AD), Theodorus Studita (790 AD); 10th Century: Ecumenius (990 AD); 11th Century: Theophylact (1077 AD); 12th Century: Euthymius (1116 AD).

    See also Fuller (4) p 110-1, (32) p98, 260 (summarizing Burgon's final findings as 300 Greek manuscripts (uncial, cursive, lectionary), reading "God" in 1 Tim. 3:16, vs. 7 which do not), Hills (3) p 137-8, Ruckman (31)See also Part 3 for further discussion on the evidence for this passage reading for this verse. ..." - Manuscript Evidence for Disputed Verses

    Additionally:

    Burgon may be read here in full - The Revision Revised – Dean John William Burgon (PDF)
     
  3. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Is there anything particularly appealing about the NWT to the members of the WTS/JW.org, and if so, what is it? Please give a list format, so I can consider those salient points.
     
  4. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    In another place, it was asked, Who is the "Us" of Genesis 1?

    The "Us" is the Person/Being of the Father speaking to the Person/Being of the Son, while the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost witnessed.

    In Genesis,

    "God said ..." is the Person/Being of the Father.

    "God made ..." is the Person/Being of the Son, Amening the will of the Father and carrying His will out.

    "God saw/moved ..." is the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost, witnessing and moving.​

    See John 1:1-3; Proverbs 8:22-36; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:1-3; 1 John 1:1-3, &c.

    JEHOVAH is the family name. Like Smith or Jones.

    Think of it (earthly-wise) like, Father Smith, Junior Smith and Uncle Smith.

    JEHOVAH the Father the Ancient of Days.

    Jesus JEHOVAH the Son, the Son of Man.

    The Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

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    The word "God" (theos) does not appear in that verse. NIV and the NWT got it right....."he" is Jesus.

    Mounce Interlinear....

    " And kai undeniably homologoumenōs great megas is eimi the ho mystery mystērion of ho godliness eusebeia, who hos was revealed phaneroō in en flesh sarx, was vindicated dikaioō in en spirit pneuma, appeared horaō to angels angelos; was preached kēryssō among en the nations ethnos, was believed pisteuō in en the world kosmos, was taken analambanō up in en glory doxa."

    No THEOS mentioned in that verse.
     
  6. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    You are reading a corrupted text, which Mounce's Interlinear follows:

    The real text, as demonstrated says:

    "Codex A, as presented in the photographic facsimile volume published by the British Museum in 1879. Of particular interest here is the reading in 3:16, where it may be seen that the manuscript reads ΘC "God was manifested in the flesh," employing the usual abbreviation ΘC for ΘEOC, with a stroke over the letters to indicate an abbreviation."

    [​IMG]

    Looking at Mss, and the vast evidence for this reading in 1 Timothy 3:16,


    1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

    why would you (and others) follow the NIV and NWT's choice to remove the word "God" and replace it with a nonsensical "He"?

    The NIV and NWT follow the same spirit:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3:16&version=NIV

    https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/1-timothy/3/

    The words do not occur in the following corrupted texts:

    Aleph (Sinaiticus), (A*, Alexandrinus), (C*??), D*, G-gr, F-gr, pc, Old Latin: ar, c, d, dem, div, f, g, mon, x, z, Vulgate, Syriac: Pes.hitta, Harclean; Coptic: Sahidic, Bohairic; Gothic, Armenian, Ethiopic​

    Here is the vast extant literature which has the text in it:

    "... Aleph-c, A-c, C-2, D-2, K, L, P
    Psi

    Cursives: MAJORITY, fam 13
    Old Latin: Vulgate-ms

    Also extant in 056, 061, 075, 0142, 0150, 0151, 0241. We have placed A and C on the revised side only because textual criticism insists in telling us that this is where they belong. In fact, that most careful of scholars, H. C. Hoskier believed the first hand palimpsest C read "God", and codex A, F.H.A. Scrivener wrote during the latter nineteenth century:

    Cod. A, however, I have examined at least twenty times within as many years ... seeing (as every one must see for himself) with Berriman and the earlier collators that Cod A read THEOS ... the evidence of Young, of Huish, of Mill, of Berriman and his friends, when the page was comparatively unworn, cannot thus be disposed of (Plain Introduction, pp 639, 640 note). ...

    ... According to Scrivener, it is quoted by some of the very earliest fathers as Ignatius (110), and Hippolytus (235). Of the more than 250 cursive manuscripts containing I Timothy, Theos is found." - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The A.V.; by Jack Moorman, pages 135

    Additionally:

    "... GREGORY OF NYSSA, Against Eunomius (III 5:101, 155, 176, 232) ..." - Early Church Fathers And The Authorized Version, by Jack Moorman, page 57

    Additionally:

    "... TEXT: "He was made apparent in the flesh"
    EVIDENCE: S* A* C* G 33 syr(pal) syr(p,h)? cop?
    TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV
    RANK: B

    NOTES: "God was made apparent in the flesh"
    EVIDENCE: Se A2 C2 Dc K L P Psi 81 104 614 630 1241 1739 1881 2495 Byz Lect
    TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn RSVn NASVn NIVn

    NOTES: "Which was made apparent in the flesh"
    EVIDENCE: D* lat vg syr(p,h)? cop?
    TRANSLATIONS: ASVn RSVn

    COMMENTS: The word "who" was changed to "which" by some copyists to refer to "mystery." In an older manuscript that does not have accents and breathing marks, all that is required to change the Greek word for "who" (OS) to the abbreviation for "God" (OS) is to add two marks. This happened to several manuscripts, apparently to give a definite subject to the following verbs. ..." - Textual Variants: 1 & 2 Timothy, Philemon
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    LOL...says who?
     
  8. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    These:

    Looking at Mss, and the vast evidence for this reading in 1 Timothy 3:16,

    1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

    why would you (and others) follow the NIV and NWT's choice to remove the word "God" and replace it with a nonsensical "He"?

    The NIV and NWT follow the same spirit:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+3:16&version=NIV

    https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/1-timothy/3/

    Additionally:

    "... Secondly, the textual evidence for the reading "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is massive. It is the reading found in the Majority of all remaining Greek manuscripts we have today. Of the 300 known Greek cursive copies we have of the epistle of Paul to Timothy 254 of them read "GOD was manifest in the flesh".

    This is also the reading found in Sinaiticus correction, A correction, C correction and D correction. Even among these 4, in their previously uncorrected forms, they disagreed with each other and none of them is grammatically correct. Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus and C used to read "who" (ὃς) and mss. D used to read "which" (ὃ) but neither reading is even good Greek grammar.

    There is NO Vaticanus reading because the Vatican manuscript is missing all of First and Second Timothy, as well as Titus, several chapters of Hebrews as well as the entire book of Revelation. In other words, ALL four of the so called 5 great uncial copies that contain this portion of the Scriptures were seen as being defective and were corrected very early on by Christian Scribes.

    "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is the reading of other uncial copies as well including K, L, P, Psi. It is the reading found in the early Byzantine Lectionaries, the Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions and is so quoted by numerous early Christian writers.

    In his book, The Revision Revised, Dean Burgon (pages 450, 454, 489-90) also cites the Georgian (6th century), Harkleian Syriac (616 AD) and the Slavonic (9th cent.) versions as reading "God." The fathers in support of this passage are as follows (Burgon, p 486-90):

    1st Century: Ignatius (90 AD); 2nd Century: Hippolytus (190 AD); 3rd Century: Apostolic Constitutions, Epistle ascribed to Dionysius of Alexandria (264 AD), Gregory Thaumaturgus; 4th Century: Basil the Great (355 AD), Chrysostom (380 AD), Didymus (325 AD), Diodorus (370 AD), Gregory of Nazianzus (355 AD), Gregory of Nyssa (370 AD). "Euthalian" chapter title of I Tim. 3, attesting to "God in the flesh."; 5th Century: Anon. citation in works of Athanasius (430 AD), Cyril of Alexandria (410 AD), Euthalius (458 AD), Macedonius 11(496 AD), Theodoret (420 AD); 6th Century: Severus, Bishop of Antioch (512 AD); 8th Century: Epiphanius of Catana (787 AD), John Damascene (730 AD), Theodorus Studita (790 AD); 10th Century: Ecumenius (990 AD); 11th Century: Theophylact (1077 AD); 12th Century: Euthymius (1116 AD).

    Hippolytus (170-236 A.D.) "God was manifested in the flesh." (Against the Heresies of Noetus I: 1:17), and Dionysius (3rd cent.) "For God was manifested in the flesh." (Conciliations I: 1:853)

    "GOD was manifest in the flesh" is also the reading of the Greek texts of Ximenes, Erasmus, Stephanus 1550, Beza 1598, Elzevir 1624, Scrivener 1894 and the Hodges and Farstad Majority Text Greek New Testament 1982. It IS the Reformation text. ..." - Another King James Bible Believer

    Additionally:

    "... This alteration has been discussed exhaustively by Burgon (14) pp 101-5, 424-504, whose researches have been summarized by the TBS (58) "God was Manifest in the Flesh." See also Fuller, citing the TBS, (32) p 24A1. ...

    ... The most ancient Greek uncial in favour of "God" in 1 Tim. 3:16, is Codex A (5th cent.). Burgon (p 432-436) cites in detail the witnesses who attest to the horizontal stroke of "Theta" in "Theos" being clearly visible up to the mid 18th century. The TBS pamphlet provides an excellent Summary. In support of A are uncials K, L and P, ("Mosquensis," "Angelicus" and "Porphyrianus" resp.) all of the 9th century.

    The extant cursive copies of Paul's letters number 300, of which 254 (designated "Paul 1" to "Paul 301") contain 1 Tim. 3:16. Of these, no less than 252 read "God," in agreement with this passage. (The two exceptions, which have already been discussed, are "Paul 17" and "Paul 73," of which the latter is a doubtful witness.) Added to this favourable testimony are 29 out of 32 Lectionary copies from the Eastern Church, reaching back to earliest times t.e. before Aleph, which support the reading "God." (Burgon, p 478, declares the 3 exceptions to be "Western documents of suspicious character.")

    Burgon p 450, 454, 489-90. also cites the Georgian (6th century), Harkleian Syriac (616 AD) and the Slavonic (9th cent.) versions as reading "God." The fathers in support of this passage are as follows (Burgon, p 486-90):

    1st Century: Barnabus, Ignatius (90 AD); 2nd Century: Hippolytus (190 AD); 3rd Century: Apostolic Constitutions, Epistle ascribed to Dionysius of Alexandria (264 AD), Gregory Thaumaturgus; 4th Century: Basil the Great (355 AD), Chrysostom (380 AD), Didymus (325 AD), Diodorus (370 AD), Gregory of Nazianzus (355 AD), Gregory of Nyssa (370 AD). "Euthalian" chapter title of I Tim. 3, attesting to "God in the flesh."; 5th Century: Anon. citation in works of Athanasius (430 AD), Cyril of Alexandria (410 AD), Euthalius (458 AD), Macedonius 11(496 AD), Theodoret (420 AD); 6th Century: Severus, Bishop of Antioch (512 AD); 8th Century: Epiphanius of Catana (787 AD), John Damascene (730 AD), Theodorus Studita (790 AD); 10th Century: Ecumenius (990 AD); 11th Century: Theophylact (1077 AD); 12th Century: Euthymius (1116 AD).

    See also Fuller (4) p 110-1, (32) p98, 260 (summarizing Burgon's final findings as 300 Greek manuscripts (uncial, cursive, lectionary), reading "God" in 1 Tim. 3:16, vs. 7 which do not), Hills (3) p 137-8, Ruckman (31)See also Part 3 for further discussion on the evidence for this passage reading for this verse. ..." - Manuscript Evidence for Disputed Verses

    Additionally:

     
    #208 coconut theology, Sep 13, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  9. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    The WTS/JW do not truly understand death either:



    They also have misunderstanding in regards the resurrection of the Son of God, the Father; and in matters of the destruction of the finally impenitent and in the 144,000 (but we'll get there).
     
  10. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Powerpoint here - https://archive.org/download/sincerely-dead/Sincerely Dead.pptx
     
  11. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Highlighted. Then consider the last few posts, and the silence following the evidence presented therein from those who claim to be those promoting "truth".
     
  12. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Jehovah's Witnesses, do they correctly identify and recognize who the AntiChrist is?

     
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