A Better God Through Logical Thought?

[Ellen Brown]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

 

[Jim]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

I don't know what to say to any of that, but if you have any more thoughts about it, I'd like to see them.

 

[Jim]

@Ellen Brown Do any thoughts come with that about what you might like to do, or what you might like to happen?

 

[Sunstone]

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

A lot of sages would agree with you.

 

[sayak83]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

I feel for you, though I can't imagine such a situation being raised in a different culture. Negative Conditioning is so hard to get rid of.

 

[wellwisher]

There is a saying that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Fear is not comfortable, however it does require we concentrate in the here and now. Fear is connected to differential thinking, since we need to make subtle distinctions while under the influence of the fight or flight response. This conditioning adds up to humans learning to use and develop the left hemisphere of the brain.

The right hemisphere of the brain is more designed for integral or spatial thought, such as is used by natural instinct. Right hemisphere thinking is more what Jesus taught. Loves integrate us with each other and nature. However, the path of Jesus required doing away with law or the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Law is a way to differentiate behavior into right and wrong, which was the original way to develop the left brain; original sin. However, law has fear as part of this enforcement club, which keeps consciousness in the left hemisphere through fear and self righteousness.

What is often lamented, was a natural part of human evolution. Humans, as pre-humans; before civilization, were natural and integrated with instinct and nature. They were right brained. A change was made to the human brain, via law of good and evil, which allowed humans to develop the left brain. It helped humans differentiate nature and reality, allowing them to control reality. Guilt and fear of everything makes all things stand out; differentiation. This led to willpower and choice. Then the push, at the time of Jesus was to return to integration; tree of life, while retaining left brain development. Humans are sort of in a transition zone, using both sides, ready for an update to the brain's operating system.

 

[Kenny]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

Ellen, this is quite insightful (in bold - as well as the rest) because it confirms that if one truly seeks, one will find.

It is insightful on multiple points

• Religion forms rules "for a people that seem unable to follow any of them" as Jesus said. Anyone can follow love for love accepts, covers and forgives failures.
• Parents often teach this. "If you DO this then I love you. If you don't do this, then I don't love you and you are punished for the next week" and during that week they remind them of their failure.
• A "condemned building" is a building that someone can't live in. A guilt ridden "condemning" religion can't be lived out. Paul understood this when he said "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". Condemnation debilitates and makes a person powerless. He/she is controlled and manipulated. Knowing that you have no condemnation produces power to live.
• The one Covenant that works the best is the Covenant of Grace. As the book of Hebrew said "Enter into the Throne room of Grace where there is mercy and Grace for help in a time of need". Grace is unmerited favor, its God's blessing regardless of ones current and passed life. It's this grace that transformed Rahab the Harlot in the Old Testament to Rahab the Righteous in the new. Grace covers sin. Grace loves no matter what one has done. Grace gives you such a wide berth of love that it encompasses every failure.
• To come to a place of "failure" opens the door for the place of faith in His grace to begin to work. Give a little space for God and He will do more abundantly than what you could ever think or imagine.
• Fear (reverence) is the beginning of wisdom and insight

Well said Ellen

 

[viole]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

Logical thought is to God, as Kryptonite is to Superman.

Ciao

- viole

 

[joe1776]

Logical thought is to God, as Kryptonite is to Superman.- viole

If one begins with the premise that the Christian Bible is divinely-inspired, I have to agree with you because that, to me, is a false premise.

However, the possible existence of a Loving Creator is not illogical.

 

[viole]

If one begins with the premise that the Christian Bible is divinely-inspired, I have to agree with you because that, to me, is a false premise.

However, the possible existence of a Loving Creator is not illogical.

Well, it is no more logical than the possible existence of a hating creator. Don’t you think so?

Ciao

- viole

 

[joe1776]

Well, it is no more logical than the possible existence of a hating creator. Don’t you think so?

No, I don't.

I think science is on the verge of discovering that conscience is a remarkable, universal (cross cultural) intuitive faculty for discerning right from wrong -- and the very kind of moral guidance system a Loving Creator would give us along with free will if life is intended to have our species make moral progress.

Since this remarkable conscience might also be explained as a product of evolution, it won't be compelling evidence of a Loving Creator, but it should move some atheists into the agnostic camp.

I'll not discuss this further here. I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

Any one of us, you or I, have access at any moment to wisdom. That is "If any man needs wisdom let him ask God..." not "let him ask the priest" not "let him ask the elders" not "let him ask a wise man." John the Baptist isn't in a temple or central location but far out in the desert, far away from any anointed place. Jesus is born not in a special place but in poverty. The low are equal to the high. That is a truth which is plagued by constant intrigue and undermined wherever it is inconvenient. I think Acts 20:29 alludes to this problem. "I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." I know many readers assume this is talking about the preservation of a set of knowledge since it uses the word 'Truth', but what if it is talking about the truth that only God has the truth? This is a central Christian teaching people tend to distort I think. It is inconvenient to leaders of all stripes.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

There are MANY ways to connect with God. It depends on your personality. There are some people whose baic makeup is intensely rational. Indeed, they are put off by experiental and emotional approaches to religion. These sort approach the Divine in their own way of understanding: logic. Thomas Aquinas is the best known Christian of this sort. In Judaism we have Rashi and the Rambam. Other religions similarly have their reasoners.

And for others, their personalities are put off by the reasoning approach. They need personal experience, or heart.

To address your concerns about a fear-mongering God, I think all things need to be kept in balance. A God that is only one of abusive fear where we are driven by guilt is emotionally and spiritually destructive. But so is a God of warped neglectful love that enables us to commit any sin without consequence. The God of true love is a parent, who loves unconditionally, but who sets up standards for our behavior with consequences, because he cares what kind of children we are.

When I have my talks with God about my life, I never feel condemned. But at the same time He is ruthlessly demanding of me to be completely honest -- no rationalizing or making excuses or denying of what I'm doing, or that it's wrong. After all, how can I move ahead and become more of the person that He has made me to be if I'm stuck in the muck?

I have found that if a person wants to change for the better, there is no better tool than religion. However, most people in churches, synagogues, temples, and mosques are simply complacent and don't avail themselves of this opportunity. It's sad.

 

[Milton Platt]

It feels sad that through all of Human history, most people seek and see a God that makes lots of hard to obey rules for a people that seem unable to follow any of them.

Some of us have brutal, punishing parents who were taught to be that way by um brutal punishing parents, who were taught to be that way by "someones" view of God as, you guessed it, brutal and punishing.

It confounds me that anyone can independently read the Bible (I stubbornly insist on the KJV for me), you can choose your own poison, and finish the OT with a view of God as anything but merciful and loving. He even tells us very simply what pleases him. Micah 6:8.

For reasons unclear to me, many/most of us are taught a guilt ridden, condemning, dependence demanding version of God, and it is almost impossible to disabuse them of that notion. This is true to everyone from Hasidic Jews, to Mormons, to Catholics, to perhaps even Muslims?

Why do we insist that God has all these demands and toilsome Covenants that are impossible to obey?

I would perhaps not be thinking this way had I not reached the point where I knew that I was a complete failure at religion. Beyond all logic and reasonableness it was still clear, even expecting to burn in Hell, that God exists and I had done my very best to please whoever Created me.

Perhaps complete failure is the birth of true love and reverence for God?

So have you simply not founded your own personal religion, then? Which is okay, it is done all the time. By the way, that is a killer avatar......

 

[ObjectOfMercy]

You should be happy to know that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not burdensome at all. Christ said,
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30

The Way which is Christ, is an easy yoke and a light burden. Christ's apostle, Paul, has written extensively, by the Holy Spirit's directly inspired words, to warn all Christians of those who would draw away from the simplicity that is in Christ by their imposed rules and lording over the people. This persuasion is not of God, but is of the enemies of God. But God will bring all His people out from under the heavy yoke of men, and into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Praise His name! Amen!

 

[osgart]

I can come up with a far superior, and more worthwhile God by just using my imagination, and reasoning.

If anyone can do that, then why bow down to the words of ancient texts?

Why not explore God using one's own conscience, reason, and moral logic?

Why not explore God all on my own?

Why not explore the self independently of any so called wisdoms, and texts?

Experience, journal writing, those would be the best teachers of self and God.

And to what success in living do we see coming from the lives of any religious, or philosophical writer, that we should follow in their example?

 

[ObjectOfMercy]

God says that men make gods after their own imaginations. They make them just like themselves and bow down and worship them. This is the mark of the beast and the number of his name. This is the 666 spoken of in the Bible. Notice, it is the number of a man. Men worship the creature rather than the Creator. They don't consider that they worship a weak and beggarly thing. They think they are strong. But God shall bring them down to the grave. Then where will all their vain gods be?