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53:9: Isaiah Prophesies the Shroud of Turin.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Death is the paradoxical agent of Life: a salvific-messianic-act with human love at the center. . . Not only can physical death help atone for sins committed on earth, but a perfect martyrdom has the singular power to repair spiritual realities in the divine realm. . . Only in this state could the soul be released from its earthly prison ---whether to ascend to its source in heaven, or become a shrine for the holy Spirit.

Professor Michael Fishbane, The Kiss of God: Spiritual and Mystical Death in Judaism, p. 116 & 126-127 (emphasis mine).​

Professor Fishbane wasn't thinking of the Shroud of Turin when he penned the statement above. Isaiah, on the other hand, probably was when he penned verse 53:9 of his later writings.




John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Death is the paradoxical agent of Life: a salvific-messianic-act with human love at the center. . . Not only can physical death help atone for sins committed on earth, but a perfect martyrdom has the singular power to repair spiritual realities in the divine realm. . . Only in this state could the soul be released from its earthly prison ---whether to ascend to its source in heaven, or become a shrine for the holy Spirit.
Professor Michael Fishbane, The Kiss of God: Spiritual and Mystical Death in Judaism, p. 116 & 126-127 (emphasis mine).​

Professor Fishbane wasn't thinking of the Shroud of Turin when he penned the statement above. Isaiah, on the other hand, probably was when he penned verse 53:9 of his later writings.

In verse 9 and 10 of Isaiah 53, the prophet speaks of the personage in the cross-hairs as an "offering for sin" אשם (asham) similar to what a leper brings for atonement (53:10). Secondarily, verse 9 is read to imply he will be "given" (not "make" per the KJV) a grave with the wicked רשע and the rich עשר (ironically, the latter is the letters of the former reversed). But it's the phrase --- במתין---- in the middle of verse 9 that covers up the fact that Isaiah is staring at the Shroud of Turin when he writes. The Hebrew word (במתין) looks similar to a plural form of the Hebrew word the KJV translates "death" (and the KJV doesn't even bother itself with that fact that it's at best plural and so translates "death" singular) but it's not actually the Hebrew word for "death" afterall: that's a veil, or shroud, placed over the living spirit found in the dead letter of the text. The actual word is the plural of a Hebrew word for a "shrine" or "sepulcher" במה:

Some refer this verse to those Israelites that die in exile; others derive במתיו from במה “high places;” comp. במתימו “their high places” (Deut. Xxxiii. 29), and refer it to the building erected over the grave; so that קבדו=במתיו “his tomb.”​
Ibn Ezra on Isaiah 53:9.​

As corrected by Ibn Ezra, the sacrificial offering (i.e. the suffering servant) shares his place of death with the wicked רשע (the two killed on either side of the suffering servant --and the word for "wicked" רשעים is plural in the text) and also with the rich עשר (which is singular in the text עשיר); he hangs between two convicted criminals in his death, but is buried in the tomb of a single rich man of Arimathea (Joseph) when he's interned in the rock (Arimathea's stone sepulcher). Ironically, the cross set between the two "wicked" רשע criminals has indeed become a "shrine" במתין of no small import (a "shrine" is a tomb where prayers and supplication to a deity are offered). It's often cast in gold, silver, and has precious stones embedded. Likewise the rock where his body was lain has become the shrine known as the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
As corrected by Ibn Ezra, the sacrificial offering (i.e. the suffering servant) shares his place of death with the wicked רשע (the two killed on either side of the suffering servant --and the word for "wicked" רשעים is plural in the text) and also with the rich עשר (which is singular in the text עשיר); he hangs between two convicted criminals in his death, but is buried in the tomb of a single rich man of Arimathea (Joseph) when he's interned in the rock (Arimathea's stone sepulcher). Ironically, the cross set between the two "wicked" רשע criminals has indeed become a "shrine" במתין of no small import (a "shrine" is a tomb where prayers and supplication to a deity are offered). It's often cast in gold, silver, and has precious stones embedded. Likewise the rock where his body was lain has become the shrine known as the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.

It's the latter of the two shrines that segues into Isaiah's prescient perception of the Shroud of Turin since in the first few centuries CE there was great excitement in various places, most notably Edessa, about a image on cloth that, get this, was "acheiropoietos": it was made, as it were, without hands. Elements of this cloth, this shroud, were so unique, particularly at the time (the first centuries of the current era) that everyone viewing it was aware that whatever the image was, however it was made, it was, as the archives of the time state it: acheiropoietos ---made without hands.

Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the beastly image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.​
Daniel 2:34.​

We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands ἀχειροποίητος.​
Mark 14:58.​

In his introduction to the Zohar, Professor Arthur Green implies that early on there were aspects of Christian teaching, symbolism, and activities, that orthodox Jews found extremely appealing. Green states that much that's in the Zohar is an attempt to bring some of the power of some of the Christian symbols back into the Jewish fold. When this sacred cloth that was acheiropoietos ---made without hands --- was being passed around and viewed by hundreds and even thousands of persons, some no doubt Jewish, it was quite a spectacle, such that Jews, perhaps having read the only verse in the NT other than Mark 14:58 (quoted above) that uses the Greek phrase acheiropoietos (ἀχειροποίητος), that is to say Colossians 2:11, they came up with their own version of a sacred cloth with an image created by sacred blood.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands ἀχειροποίητος, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.​
Colossians 2:11.​

As fate would have it, or rather as historical accounts point out, Jews came up with their own holy cloth which they often hung on the synagogue door when a ritual circumcision was taking place. In this practice, the cloth used to soak up the blood of the a previous ritual circumcision became a holy relic ----so holy in fact, that it was often used to create the wimple that surrounded the holy Torah scroll of the synagogue. It was also draped over the synagogue door announcing that a circumcision was taking place inside. In an irony of truly biblical dimensions, the the Torah scroll, which is the closest thing to an incarnation of God's word within orthodox Judaism, is wrapped in a sacred shroud ornamented with blood.



John
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Death is the paradoxical agent of Life: a salvific-messianic-act with human love at the center. . . Not only can physical death help atone for sins committed on earth, but a perfect martyrdom has the singular power to repair spiritual realities in the divine realm. . . Only in this state could the soul be released from its earthly prison ---whether to ascend to its source in heaven, or become a shrine for the holy Spirit.
Professor Michael Fishbane, The Kiss of God: Spiritual and Mystical Death in Judaism, p. 116 & 126-127 (emphasis mine).​

Professor Fishbane wasn't thinking of the Shroud of Turin when he penned the statement above. Isaiah, on the other hand, probably was when he penned verse 53:9 of his later writings.




John
Isaiah 53:9 doesn't mention any shroud let alone the known fake shroud of Turin in my opinion.

Here it is from the NIV for ease of understanding;
'He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.'

You will also note the past tense - "was" - not "will be" indicating the writer(s) of Isaiah is referencing an event that has already taken place by the time of writing in my opinion.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 53:9 doesn't mention any shroud let alone the known fake shroud of Turin in my opinion.

Here it is from the NIV for ease of understanding;
'He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.'

You will also note the past tense - "was" - not "will be" indicating the writer(s) of Isaiah is referencing an event that has already taken place by the time of writing in my opinion.

I respect your reasoning based on your context. Context is everything. Augustine was originally a womanizing pagan lawyer and philosopher of some repute before he became St. Augustine. He wrote that when he first read the Gospels they appeared to him as silly stories not to be taken seriously. When, after his conversion, his context had changed dramatically, he said he found in the same Gospels a logic and wisdom beyond anything he'd found in all the literature he'd read as a Roman philosopher. The Gospel narrative hadn't changed at all. It was the context brought to the text.

What we get out of any text depend on what we put into it. And what we put into it depends on what we posses to put into it.

Case in point. In the original Hebrew text it reads that this person was given a grave with the wicked and the rich resulting in his death and grave becoming a "shrine" precisely because he'd done no violence, and no deceit was in his mouth. The reason a somewhat typical death (crucifixion was typical in that day) became a "shrine" is because as the next verse tells us, God made his life an "offering for sin" (KJV), presumably because he'd done no violence and no deceit was in his mouth. In other words, 53:9 is speaking of a "shrine" במה erected to represent the death of a person who has become a "sin offering" אשם because of a blameless life.

In normative Judaism, an animal can be made a "sin offerings" אשם if they're blameless and have never had sex (a requirement for all offerings). But no human can be brought to the temple by another human as the sin offering offered to atone for their leprosy. And yet Isaiah 53:9 --- the whole chapter really ---appears to be speaking of a human offered and received as a viable "sin offering" אשם because of the blameless character of a life. It's this outrageous situation (a human offered as a sin offering) that results in this particular "sin offering" אשם becoming a "shrine" במה.



John
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I respect your reasoning based on your context. Context is everything. Augustine was originally a womanizing pagan lawyer and philosopher of some repute before he became St. Augustine. He wrote that when he first read the Gospels they appeared to him as silly stories not to be taken seriously. When, after his conversion, his context had changed dramatically, he said he found in the same Gospels a logic and wisdom beyond anything he'd found in all the literature he'd read as a Roman philosopher. The Gospel narrative hadn't changed at all. It was the context brought to the text.

What we get out of any text depend on what we put into it. And what we put into it depends on what we posses to put into it.

Case in point. In the original Hebrew text it reads that this person was given a grave with the wicked and the rich resulting in his death and grave becoming a "shrine" precisely because he'd done no violence, and no deceit was in his mouth. The reason a somewhat typical death (crucifixion was typical in that day) became a "shrine" is because as the next verse tells us, God made his life an "offering for sin" (KJV), presumably because he'd done no violence and no deceit was in his mouth. In other words, 53:9 is speaking of a "shrine" במה erected to represent the death of a person who has become a "sin offering" אשם because of a blameless life.

In normative Judaism, an animal can be made a "sin offerings" אשם if they're blameless and have never had sex (a requirement for all offerings). But no human can be brought to the temple by another human as the sin offering offered to atone for their leprosy. And yet Isaiah 53:9 --- the whole chapter really ---appears to be speaking of a human offered and received as a viable "sin offering" אשם because of the blameless character of a life. It's this outrageous situation (a human offered as a sin offering) that results in this particular "sin offering" אשם becoming a "shrine" במה.



John

Careful justifying the interpretation of text based on your own personal agenda, which results in many conflicting interpretation of the text without considering the down to earth understanding of the text in the real context of the time it was written.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I respect your reasoning based on your context. Context is everything. Augustine was originally a womanizing pagan lawyer and philosopher of some repute before he became St. Augustine. He wrote that when he first read the Gospels they appeared to him as silly stories not to be taken seriously. When, after his conversion, his context had changed dramatically, he said he found in the same Gospels a logic and wisdom beyond anything he'd found in all the literature he'd read as a Roman philosopher. The Gospel narrative hadn't changed at all. It was the context brought to the text.

What we get out of any text depend on what we put into it. And what we put into it depends on what we posses to put into it.

Case in point. In the original Hebrew text it reads that this person was given a grave with the wicked and the rich resulting in his death and grave becoming a "shrine" precisely because he'd done no violence, and no deceit was in his mouth. The reason a somewhat typical death (crucifixion was typical in that day) became a "shrine" is because as the next verse tells us, God made his life an "offering for sin" (KJV), presumably because he'd done no violence and no deceit was in his mouth. In other words, 53:9 is speaking of a "shrine" במה erected to represent the death of a person who has become a "sin offering" אשם because of a blameless life.

In normative Judaism, an animal can be made a "sin offerings" אשם if they're blameless and have never had sex (a requirement for all offerings). But no human can be brought to the temple by another human as the sin offering offered to atone for their leprosy. And yet Isaiah 53:9 --- the whole chapter really ---appears to be speaking of a human offered and received as a viable "sin offering" אשם because of the blameless character of a life. It's this outrageous situation (a human offered as a sin offering) that results in this particular "sin offering" אשם becoming a "shrine" במה.



John
Sorry John but a shrine is not a shroud, you are attempting to "put in" what simply isn't there in my opinion.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In normative Judaism, an animal can be made a "sin offerings" אשם if they're blameless and have never had sex (a requirement for all offerings).

This was a test to see if I'm paying attention?

When you say, "normative", I ask "who's version of normal?"

I've never heard of this no sex rule, please elaborate? And if possible detail how a person determines if an animal has been chaste when it's chosen for an offering.

Yes, that's right, I said detail. Pictures, diagrams, animated gifs. :eek::oops::p
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Sorry John but a shrine is not a shroud, you are attempting to "put in" what simply isn't there in my opinion.

A shrine is where something is enshrined. The heart and soul of a shrine is the thing enshrined there. The Shroud of Turin is enshrined in a chapel built specifically to house it: it ---the shroud--- is the heart and soul . . . the life blood (really) of the chapel-shrine where it's enshrined.

Shrines typically house a relic of some sort representing divinity. The Shroud of Turin is unique in that the linen cloth houses a relic of divinity right inside its herringbone weave. The face of a divinity is housed on, or in, the linen shroud, such that the linen shroud is itself a shrine where a divinity or a relic of divinity is enshrined.

There's no prohibition I know of that says a linen shroud can't be a shrine if a relic of divinity is housed in it.:)



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
File under
Silly attempts to legitimize Bible

If you're happily married to another worldview it would be wrong, even according to the Bible, to leave your first love and engage in illegitimate intercourse with the Bible. The Bible implies you should stay married to your first worldview until it dies. Only then is it legitimate for you to have intercourse with the Bible and its worldview.

For me to try to legitimize the Bible before your current worldview is deceased would be illegitimate intercourse with you. As best I can tell you and your current worldview are still popping out ideas just fine and dandy. The little rugrats are all over the place.

Fwiw, I suppose if someone is pretty sure their current worldview has stage 4 cancer, then I guess it's ok for them to begin to notice for the first time how attractive the Bible is -----at least from a distance.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Careful justifying the interpretation of text based on your own personal agenda, which results in many conflicting interpretation of the text without considering the down to earth understanding of the text in the real context of the time it was written.

I'm red-faced to have to admit that I've been interpreting according to my own personal agenda rather than yours. :)



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I've never heard of this no sex rule, please elaborate? And if possible detail how a person determines if an animal has been chaste when it's chosen for an offering.

How did men determine if their bride was chaste when they chose her for holy matrimony assuming that was important to them? And for what it's worth, my language was kind of tricky since I said an animal can be a sin offering if they've never hand sex. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't tell me, No John, having sex is required for an animal that's going to become a sin offering.:)



John
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
If you're happily married to another worldview it would be wrong, even according to the Bible, to leave your first love and engage in illegitimate intercourse with the Bible. The Bible implies you should stay married to your first worldview until it dies. Only then is it legitimate for you to have intercourse with the Bible and its worldview.

For me to try to legitimize the Bible before your current worldview is deceased would be illegitimate intercourse with you. As best I can tell you and your current worldview are still popping out ideas just fine and dandy. The little rugrats are all over the place.

Fwiw, I suppose if someone is pretty sure their current worldview has stage 4 cancer, then I guess it's ok for them to begin to notice for the first time how attractive the Bible is -----at least from a distance.



John
"Illegitimate intercourse with the Bible"

Now that is just weird. And creepy.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm red-faced to have to admit that I've been interpreting according to my own personal agenda rather than yours. :)



John
They key here is I do not specifically 'personally interpret the scriptures to suit any agenda, beyond what the authors wrote in the cultural context of the time it was written. Even the standard interpretations of contemporary theologies of Judaism, Christianty and Islam donot necessarily interret the scriptures in the context of the culture and time they were written.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
"Illegitimate intercourse with the Bible"

Now that is just weird. And creepy.

. . . How else are you going to get pregnant so you can be born-again: give birth to a shiny new you with a shiny new worldview and a [w]holy new context and outlook on the world?



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
They key here is I do not specifically 'personally interpret the scriptures to suit any agenda, beyond what the authors wrote in the cultural context of the time it was written. Even the standard interpretations of contemporary theologies of Judaism, Christianty and Islam donot necessarily interret the scriptures in the context of the culture and time they were written.

Isagogics (learning the history and cultural zeitgeist of the text) is the first step in correctly interpreting the text. But the Bible text is unique from all other texts in that it's designed to hide its meaning just as effectively as to reveal it. The Holy Spirit is the key that unlocks the spiritual content that's locked up as tight as though it were in a three-lock-box for those without the Spirit.



John
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Isagogics (learning the history and cultural zeitgeist of the text) is the first step in correctly interpreting the text. But the Bible text is unique from all other texts in that it's designed to hide its meaning just as effectively as to reveal it. The Holy Spirit is the key that unlocks the spiritual content that's locked up as tight as though it were in a three-lock-box for those without the Spirit.



John

To hypothetical since many claim the same as yours and come up with many conflicting interpretations. Claiming the inspirations is to common to be real.
 
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