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Featured 430 years

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by The Anointed, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    430 years after the general age Paul was referring to(10 other promises after he was 99 according to the first I count). Also Stephen had something to say about it himself.
     
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  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Nah mate, Paul was referring to the time when God made his first promise to Abraham and when the Law was given 430 years later, and that first promise to Abraham was, if he would leave his fathers household and move into the land of Canaan, that Land would be given to he and his descendants as an everlasting inheritance. And Abraham and his descendants were in the Land of Canaan 'AND' Egypt for 430 years before the Law was given through Moses the grandson of Levi. Abraham was in Canaan for 25 years when his son Isaac was born, who was 60 when Jacob was born, who was 130 when he and his family entered Egypt, 25 + 60 + 130 = 215 years in the land of Canaan, 430 minus 215 = 215 years in the land of Egypt.

    If the last thing that you would resort to is the claim there is a contradiction, then you would have to lie to yourself.

    You had said in your post #40, Luke does not mention how old they were when they had children. So there is no contradiction. Luke is about real fathers. Genesis is bloodline. This is at least how I interpret the story, which you have obviously and rightfully so, edited out, as you would be claiming that the Fathers mentioned in Genesis, which are Arpachshad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God, are not the real fathers. Revealing that your interpretations, like so many others on this form and even authors of the different Bibles, are not to be trusted. Such as the Good News Bibles interpretation of 1 Chronicles 2: 16; which states that Zeruiah and Abigail, who are said to be the sisters of Jesses sons, are erroneously interpreted as being the daughters of Jesse.

    What do you think of Acts 7: 4? Do you believe that Abraham was 75 when he left Haran to go to Canaan, or was he 136 as Stephen, who is said to have been filled with the Holy Spirit, claims?
     
    #42 The Anointed, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  3. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    I was referring to verses 6-7, though this also has its own spiritual meaning.
     
  4. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Joseph was 17 when he was sold by his brothers He was 30 when he was made ruler over the Egyptians, it was in the second year of the seven years drought that followed the seven years of plenty, that he was reunited with his father, even if the first year of the seven years of plenty began when he was thirty, this still makes Joseph 39 when he was reunited with his father Jacob.

    Where do you get your information from, it appears that it is not from your bible.
     
    #44 The Anointed, Apr 2, 2021
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  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    user4578 wrote ..... This is based on the assumption that Kohath, son of Levi, must have been part of the group that entered Egypt("133+137+80=350 =/= 430").

    We do not assume anything, we believe the scriptures which state that Kohath was among the family of Israel that went into Egypt

    user4578 wrote ..... However if Kohath was born at least 80 years into the entrance into Egypt(based on the last year assumption for each subsequent generation) , then the sum would reach 430

    Amram the son of Kohath was born when Kohath was 29, after living for another 104 years, Kohath, at the age of 133 died when his son Amram was 104 years old, and Amram died 33 years later at the age of 137..

    user4578 wrote .....(though without the last year assumption Kohath could have been born even later). And there is the possibility of this in Genesis 46:15, where an extra person was said to have entered Egypt who was part of the sum but not part of the named list,

    Because the one missing of the family of Jacob, who went into Egypt was Jacob himself.

    user4578 wrote .....allowing thus the reasoning for Kohath to have been born later, though he were listed there,

    He certainly is listed as being a young lad when He with his fathers brothers, and their father Jacob, entered Egypt

    user4578 wrote .....since I do not necessarily see the evidence for several generations to have gone unlisted between Kohath and Amram(Numbers 16:1, Numbers 26:58, 1 Chronicles 6:38, 1 Chronicles 23:12 - four sons of Kohath).

    Because Amram was the first born son of Kohath

    user4578 wrote .....Now if there were several generations between Kohath and Amram, there would be no real reason to hold to the 210 number,

    If, if, if. There are no 'IFS', Amram is the first born son of Kohath

    user4578 wrote .....
    however it would seem to beg the question of who Amram's brethren(Izhar, Hebron, Uzziel) actually were. Would they have all been Kohath's grandsons according to the generation of Moses' father? Seems a difficult question.

    Kohath had four sons: Amram, Izhar, Hebron, and Uzziel. Kohath lived 133 years. Merari had two sons: Mahli and Mushi. These are the clans of Levi with their descendants.
    Amram married his father's sister Jochebed, who bore him Aaron and Moses. Amram lived 137 years. Izhar had three sons: Korah, Nepheg, and Zichri. 22Uzziel also had three sons: Mishael, Elzaphan, and Sithri.

    Are you having difficulty comprehending the written word, or are you not pleased with what the scriptures say, and wish to create your own bible?

    Perhaps you, and the others who are posting in this thread, might care to read 1 Chronicles 6: 18; and then read 6: 22; and tell me what you make of it?
     
    #45 The Anointed, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  6. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    If that were so, I wouldn't have said it(Ezra 2:62, Neh 7:64).
     
  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    But you did say it; " However [if] Kohath was born at least 80 years into the entrance into Egypt,"

    Now [ if ] there were several generations between Kohath and Amram,

    And what has Ezra 2:62, and Neh 7:64; to do with this thread which is about the 430 years that some people believe the Israelites were in Egypt?
     
  8. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    according to you.
    I think @user4578 made a very valid point in explaining that the details of the Abrahamic covenant were still subect to some minor clarification up to the point when they entered Egypt.
    I disagree here.

    no, I did not say that the blood line excludes someone from being a real father.
    I think they are.

    I don't read of 136 years in there.
     
  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Fair dinkum! You think user4578 made a valid point do you, please explain the valid point that you believe the 'user' made? BTW Did you read 1 Chronicle 6: 18, and 6: 22; as I advised User to read?

    And you did say in post #40 that Luke is about real fathers. While Genesis is about the bloodline. And now you state that you did not say that the blood line (In Genesis) excludes someone from being a real father. I suppose you now believe that Luke, who you said is about the real Fathers, does not exclude adopted fathers etc. So please reveal who, in Genesis, the Blood line according to you, is the real fathers, or the adopted fathers of their sons, and reveal to us also, who in the genealogy recorded in Luke, who you say is about the real fathers, is not of his adopted sons bloodline?

    Stephen claimed that Abraham went into the land of Canaan, After his father 'Terah' had died.

    Genesis 11: 32; Terah died at the age of 206.

    Genesis 12: 4; When Abram was 75 years old, he started out from Haran, as the LORD had told him to do; and Lot went with him. Abram took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all the wealth (Live stock) and all the slaves they had acquired in Haran, and they started out for the land of Canaan.

    Abraham was born when Terah was 70, and his father died 136 years later at the age of 206, this means that Abraham was 136 when his father died. 206 minus 70 - 136.

    And Stephen, who is said to have been filled with the Holy Spirit, in Acts 7: 4; claims that Abraham did not move over into the land of Canaan until his father died, and Terah died when Abraham would have been 136. Does this agree with, or contradict the truth as revealed in the OT.
     
    #49 The Anointed, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Yes: this was the valid point he made: as I wrote in #48, it's this one:
    "I think @user4578 made a very valid point in explaining that the details of the Abrahamic covenant were still subect to some minor clarification up to the point when they [Jacob and his sons] entered Egypt."
    No, I didn't.
    whenever there is a discrepancy in the genealogies, the real father (as shown in Luke) was not the father according to the blood line in Genesis.So, whenever you find a discrepancy, the real father is different from the biological father. If there is no discrepancy between these two, they are identical. It's as simple as that in my view.
    that's a good point. I see no contradiction there:
    It's either:
    1. Stephen was wrong. He was filled with the Holy Spirit. But he was also human and he had to be quick to formulate his stance in that situation. Humans can always err, I think.
    Or
    2. since Abraham constantly moved in and out of Canaan - as he lived with the Philistines a long time and in Egypt - Stephen might have referred to God moving him out from these countries to install him in Canaan finally and for a longer time.
    I think it's #2 here.
     
  11. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I made a mistake. Thank you. @thomas t, corrected calculation for your attention.
     
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  12. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The only time that Abraham moved out of the Land of Canaan was because of a severe drought in the land of Canaan, the Holy Spirit moved Abraham to take Sarai into the land of Egypt where they told everyone that she was the sister to Abram, which she was, or rather his half-sister. The King saw the beautiful one from the north and took her as his wife.

    But returning to Stephen, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, he also states in Acts 7: 15-17, that Abraham bought the grave site for Sarah in the land of Shechem from Hamor, whereas Genesis 23: reveals that Abraham bought the grave site from Ephron the Hittite at Machpeleh east of Mamre, which is way to the south of Shechem. Again, Stephen’s words are untrue.

    It is also said by Stephen in the same verses, that Jacob and his sons were buried at Shechem, when in fact, it was only the remains of Joseph which was buried there, see Joshua 24: 32. Again Stephen’s words are untrue.

    Jacob and his other sons were buried at Mamre and concerning the burial of Jacob, it is written in Genesis 50: 13, “They carried the body of Jacob to Canaan and buried it in the cave at Machpelah east of Mamre in the field, which Abraham had bought from Ephron the Hittite.” Again, Stephen’s words are untrue.

    Acts 7: 14; Stephen gives the number of Jacob’s family who went into Egypt as being 75 in all, which again contradicts the Hebrew scriptures that state, in Genesis 46: 26-27; the number of Jacob’s direct descendants who actually travelled to Egypt was 66, plus Jacob himself, and his son Joseph and Joseph’s two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were already in Egypt, making the number of Jacobs immediate family in Egypt, 70.

    1 Corinthians 12: 8-11; The Spirit gives one person a message full of wisdom, while to another person the same Spirit gives a message full of knowledge. One and the same Spirit gives faith to one person, while to another person he gives the power to heal. The Spirit gives one person the power to work miracles; to another, the gift of speaking God's message; and to yet another, ‘the ability to tell the difference between gifts that come from the Spirit and those that do not.’ To one person he gives the ability to speak in strange tongues, and to another he gives the ability to explain what is said. But it is one and the same Spirit who does all this; as he wishes, he gives a different gift to each person.

    Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit, he was a wonderful asset to his community, helping the poor and needy, even working miracles, but he did not have the gift of knowing the truths as revealed in the Holy Scriptures, and the words he spoke in his defence, were definitely not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

    thomas t wrote .... that's a good point. I see no contradiction there:
    It's either:
    1. Stephen was wrong. He was filled with the Holy Spirit. But he was also human and he had to be quick to formulate his stance in that situation. Humans can always err, I think.
    Or
    2. since Abraham constantly moved in and out of Canaan - as he lived with the Philistines a long time and in Egypt - Stephen might have referred to God moving him out from these countries to install him in Canaan finally and for a longer time.
    I think it's #2 here.

    But unlike yourself, I, having studied the scriptures, know that Stephen was 'WRONG,'
     
    #52 The Anointed, Apr 3, 2021
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  13. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Thomas t wrote ….. whenever there is a discrepancy in the genealogies, the real father (as shown in Luke) was not the father according to the blood line in Genesis. So, whenever you find a discrepancy, the real father is different from the biological father.

    Nice try by Thomas t, But the Septuagint which was written some 300 years before Jesus, states in Genesis 11: 12, and 1 Chronicles 1: 18, both state that Arpachshad is the Father of Cainam, who is the Father of Shelah.

    While Nathan, from the genetic line in Luke, is the biological son of Uriah the Hittite, who David had killed after he had committed adultery with his wife ‘Bathsheba’ the mother of Shimea, Shobab, Nathan, the sons of Uriah, and Solomon her fourth and youngest son.

    I wish you and Thomas t had read 1 Chron 6: 18, and 6: 22 as I had advised. It would have been good to get your views on these two verses. 6: 18; which says; Kohath was the father of Amram, Izhar, Hebron, and uzziel.

    While 6: 22; says, These are the generations of Kohath from generation, Amminadab, Korah, Assir, Elkanah, Abiasaph, assi, Tahath, Uriel, Uzziah, and Shaul.

    One could be correct, but then both could be correct, what say you.
     
  14. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Both. Many people in biblical times had two or more names. Off the top of my head, compare Uzziyah and Azaryah (both the king and the priest), Meshulam and Shalum (ancestor of Ezra), Achazyah and Yehoachaz, Mattanyah and Tzidkiyahu.
     
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  15. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    actually Bible teaches that Abraham left Canaan at another occasion, too: Genesis 21:34.
    So this is what Stephen might have referred to.
    There is no need to conjure up "contradictions" in the Bible. It leads to nowhere, I think.
    ----------
    1 Chronicles 1 is about blood line as is Genesis 11.
    No reason to resort to the claim that there was a contradiction, The Anointed.
     
  16. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Any so-called contradictions are either in translation (Hebrew to English for example) or one's own understanding.

    The scriptures are words that have been purified 7 times (Ps 12:6), hardly a recipe for contradictions. God's Word is the only perfect thing in this imperfect world. It fits like a hand in a glove, with a scientific precision and mathematical exactness. It has all things pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3). What more could anybody want? :)

    God bless you brother!
     
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