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Featured 430 years

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by The Anointed, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    holding that Tanach does not contradict itself
    great analysis. I know you are all Bible experts, since you study so much, and I feel it's a great pleasure debating with you about the books we have in common!

    Thank you for sharing your knowledge here.

    But may I still hold it were 430 years?

    You say that Kehat entered Egypt. But I don't see this to be the case necessarily, similar to @user4578 .
    Kehat certainly is part of the list as included in Jacob's grandchildren
    Let's get back to Genesis 46:27. 70 souls that came to Egypt. Nice. As you say.

    However, Genesis 46:26 says that Jacob's born children and grandchildren who entered Egypt .... were as many as 66.
    Now, add Jacob's four wives to these 66... and this is already 70. Now add Jacob himself to this numberand we arrive at 71.

    So we see that the 66 from verse 26 and the 70 from verse 27 do not correspond.

    Furthermore, if you add the wives of Joseph's sons that were formally excluded from the 66... to the 66 you arrive at a number far larger than the mentioned 70 in verse 27.

    To me, since these two groups do not correspond to each other, it makes sense to assume that the list from Genesis 46:8-25 does not necessarily correspond to the 66 from verse 26 or the 70 from verse 27, either.
    Kehat is only part of that list... but that doesn't mean he is included in the 66 or the 70 that entered Egypt.

    EDITED my whole point and some minor errors from the old version of the post ;)
     
    #21 thomas t, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  2. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Certainly.
    The next verse, however, explains how to get to 70: "And Joseph’s sons who were born to him in Egypt were two in number. Thus the total of Jacob’s household who came to Egypt was seventy persons." - but going back you can see that there's a missing person. Jacob's wives aren't counted. Rachel certainly wasn't alive by this time and likely that the rest weren't either. Furthermore, you can only reach 33 sons of Leah if you include Jacob in that particular count, so Jacob is already included in the 66.
    Thus, really only one missing person. Kehat, at least, fits in fine among the 69.
     
  3. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    thank you. (but 66+2 is only 68:cool:;)), did you just resort to some math mistakes after reading the old version of my post too thoroughly?

    It's my latest strategy: introduce some math mistakes in the first version of the post to confuse my conversation partner and later change it (just kidding)....

    Now the point: if you say there is one missing person for reaching the 70... you say that the groups of the 66 and of the 70 somehow don't match. I say: if these two don't match already: why assume that the list from Genesis 46:8 onwards actually matches them both? Or to put it bluntly: why assume that the list matches any of them then?
    In my opinion, this would constitute an asumption.
    Before making an assumtion that would forcibly lead into a conflict concerning the time span that the Isralites have passed in Egypt.... I would simply drop the assumption.
    That's the way I always argue when someone claims a conflict within scriptures....
     
  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I don't understand...
    I didn't say that the groups of 66 and 70 don't match. I merely explained why it would be incorrect to add Jacob's wives to the 66 and why it makes more sense to add Joseph and his sons. And that leaves us with the number 69, which is a one-person-difference between that and the final number of the list, 70.

    Other than that, the number 70 is reiterated twice more in the Torah:
    Exodus 1:5: "The total number of persons that were of Jacob’s issue came to seventy, Joseph being already in Egypt."
    and Deuteronomy 10:22: "Your ancestors went down to Egypt seventy persons in all; and now the LORD your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven."
    So we have three verses that state that the original group was numbered as 70 people, and we only have one list, a list of 69. All numbers are stated directly in relation to this list. It's not as though we got a list in one chapter, and then the sum total of the list was stated in a completely different place.

    Furthermore, Kehat, whom you are arguing against, fits in perfectly in the sub-list of the descendants of Leah.
     
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  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Interesting.
     
  6. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    thank you very much for pointing out how you arrive from 66 to 70. You add Joseph and two of his sons (+ one other).
    Ok, I got that wrong. Joseph was already there. Sure. I'm remembering. So it's good to have you here, I think.

    There is still space for some apologetics here, I think:


    If you want to arrive at the number of 66 children+grandchildren that went to Egypt - you also have to add at least one other to the list, also.
    There are 70 names in the list: 33 from Leah see Genesis 46:15, but two died.
    16 from Silpah, 14 from Rachel and 7 from Bilha.
    If you discount Joseph and his sons, and if you discount the two that have died in Canaan, you actually arrive at 65.

    If you add Jacob at that point already, then you can't add him when you want to arrive from the 66 to the 70.

    My point is: if you have to add one person to the list to arrive at 66 (or 70), why rule out that another one cannot be added, too? In this case you would have one person more than the 70 and you could argue that Kehat was born in Egypt, as well.

    True, Kehat fits nicely in when it comes to the structure of that list.

    However, my biggest concern is this one:
    when it comes to the list of 65 (apart from 2 other grand sons dead + Joseph and two sons) children... we read of 63 sons and two daughters.

    To me it does not seem likely that this list is exhaustive.

    (Also, you count out the wives of the sons, it seems.
    They are mentioned in verse 26.
    I would say: Joseph and his sons are not included in the 70, even though mentioned in said verse.
    Why not 66 + Jacob himself + some wives and we arrive at 70?... but this is just an aside.
    You may keep your point here, I won't argue)



    So, lets say there were perhaps 20 daughters instead of two and there you go: many of the listed sons were born in Egypt.

    At first glance it seems to be pulled out of thin air that you want Kehat to be born in Egypt.
    However, if you count in potential daughters that they might have had also... my whole point makes sense, I think.
     
    #26 thomas t, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  7. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Nope. Count the descendants of Leah. Er and Onan aren't part of the 33. Chetzron and Chamul come instead of them.
    Therefore, without Joseph and his sons, we have 66.
    I don't understand. Jacob is included in the first 33 - the descendants of Leah.
    So we're still at 69.
    I think this nullifies your subsequent calculations...
    "some wives" won't do, because you'd have to explain which wives and why...and that seems to have no textual basis, really.
    We could say that. But that's not evidence that Kehat himself was born in Egypt. Don't forget that Judah was the fourth son while Levi the third and Judah already had five sons. Why would it be so crazy that Levi's sons were born in Canaan?
     
  8. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    great answers.
    I counted them again and again: including the two that died I count 33 descendants of Leah.
    I count 5+7+4+8+5+4, 33 then. See below.
    But I forgot to count Dinah: 34
    so together with the rest (37) we arrive at 71.
    Take Joseph and his sons out + the two that died, and you arrive at 66, indeed.
    So my apolgies: I miscounted in the last post, sorry (I left out Dinah).

    My take for how to get from the 66 to the 70: it's the three wives that Jacob had besides Rachel that died. + Jacob, and there is it: 70.

    Sounds perfect, but the daughters besides the 2 mentioned in the list... are missing. I mean they must have had more daughters than just 2, I guess.
    So I conclude the 71 names minus Joseph and his sons (2), minus the two that died happen to be also 66. But these aren't the 66 mentioned in verse 26, I suppose, since in this case, they would have entered only 2 daughters and as many as 64 sons!

    For me this is too unlikely to have happened.

    I don't understand: you count Jacob among the descendants of Jacob? I mean you wrote this:
    "Jacob is included in the first 33 - the descendants of Leah."*
    Look, I made so many mistakes until this point... so I think it won't be horrible if you miscalculated once, you too.

    Yeah, I really think that's the solution: the list wasn't exhaustive, they had many daughters and many menioned children among them weren't born until they entered Egypt. Kehat among them.
    This is the only way that I see to reconcile scriptures and arrive at the 430 years.

    It's no crazy thing to assume that Levi's sons were born in Canaan, as well.
    However, if this leads to the conclusion that the 430 years are not valid... I say no to this hypothesis...

    I think we had a great exchange. You reminded me that Rachel died in Canaan (I got that wrong, too) and you showed many other things. So thanks a lot! Great exchange here!
    ---------

    *
    and the sons of Reuben: Hanoch, Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi. (5)
    10 The sons of Simeon: Jemuel, Jamin, Ohad, Jachin, Zohar, and Shaul, the son of a Canaanite woman. (7)
    11 The sons of Levi: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. (4)
    12 The sons of Judah: Er, Onan, Shelah, Perez, and Zerah (but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan); and the sons of Perez were Hezron and Hamul. (altogether: 8)
    13 The sons of Issachar: Tola, Puvah, Yob, and Shimron. (5)
    14 The sons of Zebulun: Sered, Elon, and Jahleel. (4)
    15 These are the sons of Leah,


    according to ESV, you say it's the version perhaps?

    EDITED (clarification)
     
    #28 thomas t, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  9. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I have no idea what you're referring to.
    Here, I'll count them with you, and you tell me how this is supposed to be 34:
    1. Yaakov
    2. Reuven
    3. Chanoch
    4. Palu
    5. Chetzron
    6. Carmi
    7. Shimon
    8. Yemuel
    9. Yamin
    10. Ohad
    11. Yachin
    12. Tzochar
    13. Shaul, son of the Canaanitess
    14. Levi
    15. Gershon
    16. Kehat
    17. Merari
    18. Yehudah (Er and Onan - not counted)
    19. Shelah
    20. Peretz
    21. Zerach
    22. Chetzron
    23. Chamul
    24. Yissachar
    25. Tola
    26. Puva
    27. Yov
    28. Shimron
    29. Zevulun
    30. Sered
    31. Elon
    32. Yachle'el
    33. Dinah

    If someone's missing, please point it out.
    Thus, I still find no evidence for Kehat not having been born yet.
    Yes, digging into the text is always enjoyable. Thanks to you too! :)
    I recommend writing that you've edited something before the edited part itself, so that readers will know what you're talking about.
     
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    if it's just minor changes I write "edited for clarity", normally I repeat a phrase or add a word to get my point accross more clearly. If I edit the content, I always highlight in in blue color, as you say. I think this is needed.

    So your list includes Jacob and you arrive at 33. My list does not include Jacob, but includes Er and Onan, the ones you counted out. Arriving at 34. So we are in agreement.

    Yeah it's great digging into the text.

    No, the text does not provide the evidence for Kehat not being born until they reached Egypt.
    As an apologist, all I do is trying to find ways in which you interpret the text arriving at zero contradictions.
    My point: I see no way around the assumption that Kehat was born in Egypt. My approach is to not run into the dilemma of not being able to fill the 430 years. As you said, when you count the years in the genealogy for Moses you'll arrive at 350 years at best - provided that Kehat was born in Canaan.

    So all I do is this: I try to tackle this exact premise. If the exegesis allows for Kehat to have been born in Egypt, you can add some 80 more years: this allows you to count the 430 years, even in Moses' genealogy.

    That's the point. It's just an attempt to get around some contradiction concerning the 430 years.

    Atheists hate me for doing these kinds of calculations. They blame me of saying anything just to avoid the contradiction. Well yes. That's an apologist's bread and butter, I think. That's what we do. We always try to find something to avoid the contradiction. I assume the Bible to be error free and I am happy so.:)
    ;)
     
  11. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    How are we in agreement? My list lines up perfectly with the number stated in the verse, 33. Yours doesn't.
    And I see no reason to assume this. :cool:
    Are you comfortable with saying that Kehat was born 80 years after they came to Egypt, when his father Levi was 120+ years old?
    And that Amram was born to Kehat when Kehat was 133?
    And that Moses was born to Amram when Amram was 137?
    If you're comfortable with all of that, then kudos.
    I'm fine with that. Scripture is holy, but more important (in this context), it's written as a theological document first, and historical second. In this case, however, I still disagree with your calculations.
     
  12. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    we are not? Ah I see, you need to count Jacob in to arrive at 33.;)

    Actually, there are 34 names, if we leave out Jacob himself. And verse 15 says there are 33 children.
    So we have one name counted out in verse 15. That's odd. I don't know the answer here.
    But for me that's an aside.

    I'll take the kudos ;).
    Abraham, Levi's great grand father was also quite old to get some children with Keturah.
    The general age of people went down at this age, according to the Bible. But maybe Levi was real old, too.

    EDITED first paragraph (see the blue added one).
     
    #32 thomas t, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  13. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Oh. You didn't mention Dinah previously. Got it.
    True.
    Yes. I surmised he was at least 120 years old according to your calculations. Joseph was 37 when his family came to Egypt, and Joseph was only born after several years of Jacob living with his wives in Aram. So I'd say that Levi is at least 3 years older than Joseph. 37+3+80=120.
     
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  14. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs of the House of Israel, is the collected words of the twelve sons of Jacob which they spoke to their children, which testaments were put down in written form between 107 and 137 B.C. Their testaments had been orally handed down from generation to generation, as were the Torah scrolls plus the records of the prophets, that were rewritten during the Jewish captivity in Babylonia from the oral tradition of the Jews. This was because the Torah scrolls that had been housed in the temple of Solomon, were destroyed, when the temple was sacked and burned by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar in 587 B.C.

    Levi 11: 1-8; Therefore, when I took a wife, I was twenty-eight years old, and her name was Melcha. And she conceived and bare a son, and I called his name Gersam, for we were sojourners in our land, and I saw concerning him, that he would not be in the first rank, And Kohath was born in the thirty-fifth year of my life, towards sunrise. And I saw in a vision that he was standing on high in the midst of all the congregation, therefore I called his name Kohath [which is, beginning of majesty and instruction]. And she bare me a third son, in the fortieth year of my life; and since his mother bare him with difficulty, I called him Merari, that is, 'my bitterness,' because he also was like to die. And Jochebed (The daughter of Levi to an Egyptian princess) was born in Egypt, in my sixty-fourth year, for I was renowned then in the midst of my brethren.

    From the Testament of Levi, 12: 5; Eight years old was I when I went into the land of Canaan, and eighteen years when I slew Shechem, and at nineteen years I became priest, and at twenty-eight years I took a wife, and at forty-eight I went into Egypt. And behold, my children, ye are a third generation. In my hundred and eighteenth year Joseph died.

    Kohath was born when Levi 35, and Levi was 48 when he entered Egypt, making Kohath 13 years old when he went into Egypt. Jochebed the mother of Moses was born on the same day as Amram the father of Moses and Jochebed was born in the 64th year of Levi, who entered Egypt at the age 48, revealing that the parents of Moses, were born in the 16th year of Israel's sojourn in Egypt. Joseph died at the age of 110, and Levi was 118 when Joseph died, making Levi 8 years older than Joseph

    Jacob had worked for Laban for seven years for the hand of Rachel, but during the night of the wedding festival, Laban slipped his older daughter ‘Leah’ into the matrimonial tent, and Jacob didn’t realise until next morning that he had been duped, he then agreed to work another seven years for ‘Rachel’ the love of his life, and a week after his marriage to Leah, he consummated his union to Rachel.

    Jacob worked for Laban, 20 years in total, 14 years for his two wives ‘Leah and Rachel,’ then an extra six years for wages to be taken in the form of livestock. No children were born in the first seven years, as Jacob did not get his first wife 'Leah,' until he had worked seven years for Laban. So Levi, the fourth son of Leah would have been born in the 5th year of the second seven Years of Jacob’s contract labour for his wives, and therefore 8 years old when Jacob left Laban after working the extra six years.

    Joseph, who died at the age of 110, died in the 118th year of the life of Levi, revealing that Joseph was 8 years younger than Levi when he died and was therefore, a new born baby in the year that Jacob left Laban and returned to the land of Canaan.

    After living in the land of Canaan for 10 years, Shechem the son of the tribal chief ‘Hamor’ raped Levi’s 12 years old sister ‘Dinah,’ which tribe, Levi and Simeon later murdered.
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Anointed wrote…..My, my, how you must hate Christians who believe the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James the righteous, and Jude the brethren of James and Jesus, who are the authors of NT, that you describe as Jews of the worst kind and who are no more than indecent lowlifes.

    Harel13, wrote ....."I don't hate Christians. I hate antisemites and I hate the NT."

    (Response) And do you love the Jewish authors of the NT, who you have described as Jews of the worst kind and who are no more than indecent lowlifes?

    The Anointed wrote ….. You do realise of course that you don't have an original Hebrew bible, the oldest extant copy of some Hebrew scripture that was in existence some 600 years after Jerome's Latin translation, was made by the Masorets, which copy contains so many of the same errors made by Jerome in his Latin translation of the Hebrew that existed in his day.

    Harel13, wrote ..... Ah, so I suppose we're at a draw, then. Neither of us have an original text. So I don't think you're in a position to lord over me with the septuagint.

    (Response) You seem to have some sort of inferiority complex here. I'm not Lording it over you mate I'm simply stating that which is recorded in the Septuagint. Which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew bible that was written in Babylon, from the oral tradition of the Jews that had been handed down from generation to generation, because the scrolls that were kept in the temple of Solomon were destroyed, when in 587 B.C., the troops of Nebuchadnezzar sacked and burned the temple and all therein that was of no use to them.

    The Anointed wrote ….. Oh, BTW, I didn't need to look at Exodus 12: 40; to know that you, who said, "look at the verse, you'll see that it never says that they were in Egypt for 430 years to the day, but that when they left, it was 430 to the day," haven't got a clue as to what you are talking about. Because unlike you, I DO know what I'm talking about, Exodus 12: 40; from the Hebrew bible.

    מ וּמוֹשַׁב בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֲשֶׁר יָשְׁבוּ בְּמִצְרָיִם--שְׁלֹשִׁים שָׁנָה, וְאַרְבַּע מֵאוֹת שָׁנָה. Now the time that the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. Check it out yourself here in the following link . . . . Exodus 12 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre (mechon-mamre.org).


    Harel13, wrote ..... Yet you yourself don't accept this verse as-is. How odd.

    (Response) Why would you find it odd, when in Post #8, I said; “Both the Latin Vulgate, which is a translation of a Hebrew bible that was still in existence at the time of Jerome, who was bound to make some mistakes, as he was no expert on the Hebrew Language, and the Hebrew Masoretic text that was copied from an unknown source, which was written by Masorets some six hundred Years after Jerome’s translation, and which contains many of the same errors, such as the four hundred and thirty years that Israel was supposed to have been in Egypt.”

    When I said in post #17; That you have never spoken truer words, than when you said; "Just because someone is a Jew, that doesn't make them correct. I was referring to you young fellow, and not to the righteous Jewish authors of the NT.

    Harel13, wrote ..... Really?! No kidding!!!! In my previous post I was being sarcastic, and here I am again, being sarcastic. I know you think people that disagree with you are dense, but we're really not.

    (Response) What would you think of someone who said in post #5; In Exodus 12:40-41 it says: "The length of time that the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. At the end of the four hundred and thirtieth year, to the very day, all the ranks of the LORD departed from the land of Egypt."

    Then that same person, who in post #5, has confessed that Exodus 12: 40; says that the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years, In post #18. That same person said; “If you look at the verse, you'll see that it never says that they were in Egypt for 430 years to the day, but that when they left, it was 430 to the day.

    I wouldn’t say that person was dense, but I would ask them to make up their mind and tell us all, whether they believe that Exodus 12: 40; says, that the Israelites WERE in Egypt for 430 years, or if it never says that they were in Egypt for 430 Years?

    The Anointed wrote ….. Enjoy the rest of your day, and try to educate yourself on the Jewish Bible.

    Harel13, wrote ..... I'll do my best. If you could actually address my calculations point by point for a change, then this thread might actually go somewhere.

    (Response) Genesis 15: 13; And He said unto Abram: 'Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years.

    Perhaps Jerome's translation is in error here also? As you and I both agree, he erroneously believed that the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years, he would also believed that they were afflicted in that foreign land for some 400 years.

    You have already admitted that Exodus 12: 40; was incorrect and that most orthodox Jews like yourself, believe that the Israelites were not in the land of Egypt for 430 years, but were in the Land of Canaan for 210 years, and therefore in the Land of Egypt for 220 years, making 430 years that the Israelites were in the Land of Canaan 'AND' Egypt, as revealed in the Septuagint.

    Could you please reveal, where Jacob, his descendants, and the children of Keturiah, who were sired by Abraham, served any Master in a foreign land, or were ever afflicted during those 210, actually 215 years, before Abrahams descendants, went into Egypt, where they lived like Kings, until all the generation of Jacobs actual sons had died, when a new King arose in the Land.

    Exodus 1: 6 In the course of time Joseph, his brothers, and all the rest of that generation died, but their descendants, the Israelites, had many children and became so numerous and strong that Egypt was filled with them.

    Then, a new king, who knew nothing about Joseph, came to power in Egypt. He said to his people, “These Israelites are so numerous and strong that they are a threat to us, etc, etc.

    How long were the Israelites in Egypt living the life of Riley before that King who ordered that all Hebrew boys be exposed in the Nile, came to power?
     
    #35 The Anointed, Apr 1, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  16. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Bible only please.
     
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  17. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Which bible are you referring to? The Hebrew bible which states in Genesis 11:12, and 1 Chronicles 1: 18, that Arpachshad is the father of Shelah, or the Latin Vulgate which is a translation by Jerome, of a Hebrew text that still existed in his day, which says the same, concerning Arpachshad supposedly being the father of Shelah as does the Masoretic text, which was written some six hundred years after Jerome's translation.

    Or perhaps you are referring to the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of a Hebrew text that had existed some 3 hundred years before Jesus, and from which Greek bible, Jesus and his apostles taught, which bible states in both Genesis 11: 12. and 1 Chronicles 1: 18; that Arpachshad was the father of Cainan, or the NT, when, in Luke 3: 36-38, it is said that Arpachshad is the Father of Cainan who is the father of Shelah.

    Or would you be referring to the book of Jubilees, where it is written in Chapter 8; In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, [1373 A.M.] in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Rasu'eja, the daughter of Susan, the daughter of Elam, and she bare him a son in the third year in this week, [1375 A.M.] and he called his name Kainam. And the son grew, and his father taught him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for himself a city. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teaching of the Watchers in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and stars in all the signs of heaven. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it. And in the thirtieth jubilee, [1429 A.M.] in the second week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Melka, the daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and in the fourth year [1432 A.M.] he begat a son, and called his name Shelah; for he said: 'Truly I have been sent.'

    I await your answer, which hopefully will explain the bible you are referring too.
     
    #37 The Anointed, Apr 1, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  18. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    in my opinion, there are no contradictions here.
    The one genealogy refers to the blood line, the other to "real " fathers.
    I close relative of mine saw her father (blood line) once in her life.
    She said that's not her father. Right.
    Book of Jubilees is not Bible.
     
  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    So, in your opinion, which genealogy refers to the blood line? the genealogy as recorded in Jerome's OT and the Masoretic text, or the Greek Septuagint? And which genealogy refers to the real fathers? the genealogy as recorded in Jerome's OT and the Masoretic text, or the Greek Septuagint?

    And you don't believe that the OT of the Roman Canon, which states that Arpachshad is the father of Shelah, is not contrary to the NT of the Roman canon, where Luke, who like Jesus and the apostles taught from the Septuagint, reveals that Shelah is the son of Cainan/Kainan. Hmmmm, interesting.

    When you are calculating the years between Noah and Abraham, do you add the age of Cainan/Kainam when he sired Shelah, revealing that you believe Luke, who quotes from either the Septuagint or Jubilees, or do leave out the age of Cainam when he is said to have sired Shelah, thereby revealing that you believe the gospel of Luke to be erroneous?

    So then, do you believe Jerome's translation and the Masoretic text which was written some 600 years later, and which both state that the Israelites were in the Land of Egypt for 430 years to the very day, or do you believe Paul's revelation and the Septuagint, which both state that the Israelites were in the land of Canaan 'AND' the land of Egypt for 430 years?

    I await your answer.
     
    #39 The Anointed, Apr 2, 2021
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  20. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Luke does not mention how old they were when they had children. So there is no contradiction.
    Luke is about real fathers. Genesis is bloodline. This is at least how I interpret the story.

    430 years: maybe it's like this: Paul is saying that the Mosaic law came after [the] 430 years.
    I didn't think that through though.
    Look the last thing I would resort to is the claim there is a contradiction.

    Galatians 3:17
     
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