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1st and 2nd Death

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Aug 8, 2020.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Is the first death the spiritual death? Spirit being entombed in the earthly body?

    And the second death is the physical death which is the birth of the spirit?


    2 Corinthians 5:8

    1 Corinthians 15:51–54
     
  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Meher Baba's words:

    We must lose ourselves to find ourselves; thus loss itself is gain.
    We must die to self to live in God; thus death means life...
    Being is dying by loving.
     
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  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the divine animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, and it is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information or SPIRIT, is gathered.

    YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become ‘WHO YOU ARE’, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]

    If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”

    Then of the Thee in Me who works behind The veil,
    I lifted up my hands to find A lamp amid the Darkness;
    and I heard, As from Without----
    “The Me within Thee is blind.”----- By Omar Khayyam.

    When the body in which you [the invisible mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body of “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU, the mind or spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force or soul, [The collective consciousness of all that exists] from which it will be resurrected in this or the next cycle of universal activity. Unless of course, the information=spirit that is “YOU” is then divided from the universal life-force, which is the second death. For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul. Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”
     
  4. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    In the New Testament the phrase "second death" refers to the real or total death of a soul, and the first death is the illusory or transitional death when this mortal physical body we are in dies. Those that pass through the first death in Christ's words are generally "asleep" -- meaning it seems, they are in the in-between state of this temporary body dead, but not yet awakened to the day of accounting. He was able, or could call on God, as we read, to awaken those 'asleep'. E.g. --

    Luke 8:52 Meanwhile everyone was weeping and mourning for her. But Jesus said, "Stop weeping; she is not dead but asleep."
    Luke 8:53 And they laughed at Him, knowing that she was dead.
     
  5. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    The first death is the physical body. After the second birth we will be spiritual beings. These spirit beings will have a choice to obey God or not. Those who obey will live forever and never face the second death. Those who do not obey will die spiritually and will exist no more.
     
  6. Onoma

    Onoma Active Member

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    I feel like the standard Greek concordances mention this

    νεκρος nekros {nek-ros'}
    from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse); adj AV - dead 1, properly, one that has breathed his last, lifeless, deceased, departed, one whose soul is in Hades, destitute of life, without life, inanimate , metaphorically - spiritually dead, destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins, inactive as respects doing right, destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
     
  7. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    How about this: As Spiritual beings we are Eternal. Being trapped in a physical body is not death. It's being trapped. On the other hand, I can see where freedom from being trapped can be a most liberating thing.

    The death of our physical body is not death either, simply because we are not really that physical body. Hey, when you car dies, it might seem like death when you might have to walk, but it really isn't death at all. Trade the old car in for a newer model.

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
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  8. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 57: 1; Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they (Good People) die, no calamity can hurt them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death. '

    The JWs will tell you that those who live wicked lives also find peace and rest in death.

    Luke 16: 23;The rich man died and was buried, and in Hades, where he was in great pain, he looked up and saw Abraham, far away, with Lazarus at his side.

    It was to Hades that Jesus in the spirit descended and preached the good news to the dead who were able to hear him.
     
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  9. EsonauticSage

    EsonauticSage Between extremes

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    Orgasm and similar altered states of consciousness are the first death. La petite mort - Wikipedia
    Death itself is the second death, but death as we conceptualize it is non-existent, there is no death but only life.
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    All have sinned and all must die once then go off into Judgement. What part of 'YOU' goes off into judgement after the death and DECOMPOSITION of your body?

    This body that you see---it isn’t really me
    It’s but the womb in which I’m being formed
    For I am spirit—I am mind
    And it’s the only place you’ll find
    WHO I AM, until the day I’m finally born.
    For I will not be free, until this body that you see
    Has returned to the dust from whence it came
    It’s then that I’ll be born from this womb in which I’m formed
    To continue on in life’s eternal game...... The Anointed.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    NO.

    NO again.

    Interpretation is everything if we are to truly understand scripture. So what do we discern about the two scriptures you provided?

    2 Corinthians 5:8
    "But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord."

    What was Paul talking about? It was only after their anointing at Pentecost that the faithful disciples of Jesus learned that their destination was heaven. As Jews, they had no such hope originally....the Kingdom of God was very much an earthly affair with Israel being restored to their land and the Messiah ruling God's nation and re-establishing his priesthood. They believed in a restoration of something like they had before...only better. The disciples parting word to Jesus indicated this.
    Acts 1:6...
    "So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?"
    But at Pentecost, some days later, the holy spirit anointed 120 of Christ's disciples for life in heaven, granting them spiritual 'gifts'. For them it would mean a physical death, but a spiritual resurrection...i.e. being given a new body so as to be able to dwell in the presence of God....something human flesh and blood cannot do. They yearned for that time to come, but no one knew when.

    This is what Paul spoke about. The holy spirit created in them an inordinate desire to leave all attachments on this earth and join their Master in his heavenly kingdom. What were they to do there? Revelation 20:6 tells us...

    "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years."

    The opportunity held out to these ones was a place in the heavenly Kingdom as "kings and priests". Kings need subjects and priests need sinner for whom to perform their priestly duties....so, since there are no sinners in heaven and kings do not rule over other kings....who are their subjects?

    Revelation 21:2-4 answers...
    "I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

    This heavenly "city" is God's Kingdom with Christ and his "bride" bringing their rulership to "mankind" on earth. So the Jewish expectation was correct, but Jesus just revealed more details about who will rule in it.....and from where....and for how long.

    So what about 1 Corinthians 15:51–54....
    "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.

    "The last trumpet" gives us a timeframe....according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18....he locates this trumpet call at Christ's second coming....the time when he comes to take his co-rulers "home" to be with him in heaven....

    "Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words."

    These ones are still "sleeping in death" when Christ comes, and he resurrects them "first" (as it says in Revelation) Then it speaks of those still alive on earth when he finishes what he started here, and also takes action towards them. These ones do not need to "sleep" but will shed their physical bodies and be transformed into spirit creatures so that all of the "chosen ones" will be ready to take over the earth's rulership when God's kingdom replaces all the failed human rulerships. It will "come" and crush them out of existence. (Daniel 2:44)

    If you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 again you will see exactly what Paul was talking about.

    Though unrelated to the cited scriptures, the "first death" is inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12) and we are all its victims. The "second death" is the one from which no one is resurrected.....the first death is what Christ came to redeem mankind from....but the second death means that one has been considered unworthy of life....it means eternal death. Whatever God wants eternally destroyed, goes into "the lake of fire"....that includes death and hades (which is the grave). (Revelation 20:13-15)

    This is what JW's believe.
     
  12. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Interpretation is everything if we are to truly understand scripture.

    After the great tribulation, which is the war to end all wars, and the beginning of the thousand rule of Christ, Zechariah 14; And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one. Then everyone that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.

    "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings (On earth) with him for the 1,000 years."

    After the thousand years are ended, and the heavenly fire as prophesied by the Lord through his prophet Zephaniah, has incinerated all physical life forms that remain on earth, the holy city, New Jerusalem, comes down out of heaven from God.

    Revelation 21:2-4 answers...
    "I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

    But not all will fall asleep in death, for at the sound of the last trumpet, before the heavenly fire incinerates everything on earth, at the close of the thousand year Sabbath, the elect and chosen will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter into Glorious bodies of incorruptible and blinding light.

    1 Corinthians 15:51–54....
    "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.

    As said at the beginning; Interpretation is everything if we are to truly understand scripture.
     
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  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Active Member

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    The first death is the death of the body. Our souls do not die at this point. matt 10:28. For most, the soul goes to a place to await the bodily resurrection and final judgement.
    2 Cor 5:8 and 1 Cor 15:51-54 are written to a Christian audience and should not be taken any other way.
     
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