‘Jesus was WITH GOD’ therefore Jesus WAS GOD?

[blü 2]

This should be a very short debate:

• If Jesus was ‘WITH God’ how could he ‘BE GOD’?
• Who is ‘GOD’ that Jesus was ‘WITH’?

The five major versions of Jesus in the NT each state that they are NOT God, simply God's envoy.

Jesus does not officially become God until the adoption of the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century, though there had been plenty of pushing to improve his earthly status for a long time before that.

The Trinity doctrine is "a mystery in the strict sense". That means that "it can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed." The words in quotes are from church doctrine.

As a moment's reflection will reveal, this means that the Trinity doctrine is a nonsense.

Under the doctrine, the Father is 100% of God and Jesus is 100% of God and the Ghost is 100% of God. That makes 300% = 3 gods, right? No, wrong, says the doctrine, there's only one God, though there are three persons, and that's why it's a mystery in the strict sense (which as I mentioned is why, thus, it's a nonsense).

Some of the problems are all four gospel Jesuses praying at Last Supper time "If it be my will let this cup (imminent death) pass from me", and the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew saying on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" And since (as far as I can tell) the Father never disagrees with Jesus or the Ghost, Jesus never disagrees with the Father or the Ghost, and the Ghost never disagrees with the Father or Jesus, this means that although they have different names, they only have one will, that is, they're really only one person, so that the names are just different masks of the one entity.

And at a more practical level, when you pray to God, who answers the phone?

So to address the OP's question, the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John could be with God because they'd pre-existed in heaven with God, and indeed created the material universe (despite Genesis); and the Jesus of Mark could be with God because Mark's Jesus wasn't special until his baptism, when the heavens opened and God adopted him as [his] son; and the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke could be with God because they got 50% of their genes (including their Y-chromosome) straight from God.

 

[Brian2]

Where. I don't see any mention of Jesus and the "spirit of God" is not called anything other than the "spirit of God."

You need to look at the New Testament and what it has to tell us.

 

[SDavis]

Since we’re discussing Biblical theology, it should be asked: did the Jews worship a trinity? No. Deuteronomy 6:4 is pretty clear. And what’s the *First* Commandment? Exodus 20:1-5 says to ‘worship Yahweh *only*; to not have any other gods against His face, for He is a jealous God.’

By adding Jesus and the Holy Spirit, trinitarians are not giving Yahweh the exclusivity He requires! But they don’t seem to grasp the dangerous position that puts them in. Even Jesus said “true worshippers worship the Father.”
John 4:23,24

David wrote two things Psalms 2:12 kiss the "Son" lest he be angry and his wrath is kindled but a little and ye perish in the way __ speaking of the Son of God ..... Psalms 110:1 and *The Lord* said unto *My Lord* sit thou at my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool .... One is The Lord who is our Father the other is My Lord who is our Lord God Yahweh / Yeshua / Jesus.

Daniel 3:25 and lo I see four men unbound an unharmed and walking around in the fire and the form of the fourth looks like the Son of God ..... Different form, different form from the human form, that is recognizable to be the Son of God.....

Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a SON is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.......... We are *given* to the Son, he is the true King/Prince/ Ruler of the world ___ he is the *Mighty God* of this world ___ he is the *Everlasting Father* (the Word of God of our Father, the one who accomplished all things - who is one with our Father, one can say in human terms and exact clone and if humans can accomplish cloning, what do you think God can do? ____ and he is also the Prince of Peace

Isaiah 7:14 and a virgin / maiden shall conceive and bear a Son and his name shall be called Emmanuel, meaning God with Us._____

Who is the Spirit of the Lord other than the Holy Spirit? In the Old Testament just considered as God's spirit or the Spirit of the Lord in the New Testament the Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit
14 Bible verses about The Spirit Of The Lord

The spirit of God working or abiding in people
41 Bible verses about The Spirit Of God


Trinitarians didn't add Jesus and the Holy Ghost /Spirit _ they are written of in the Old Testament and when two different prophets say that the child will be called Almighty God, God with Us, Everlasting Father - the Trinity was established.

The only God, the One True God, having no other Gods, he is God all by Himself simply means he is Our God and there is no one else for us to turn to just like what's written in the New Testament when he says I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the father except by him.
The first commandment is: Thou shalt not put no other God before me......

 

[Soapy]

You need to look at the New Testament and what it has to tell us.

The Spirit of a thing is not the thing itself. The thing CONTROLS it’s Spirit. The spirit of a thing is a PROPERTY of the thing…

In our case, the Spirit of God is the spirit PROPERTY OF GOD.

See that little word, ‘Of’…? It definition the connection as a property:

• ‘The handle OF the door’

The handle is not the door. It is a property of the door.

The Son of God has NOTHING to do with a procreated offspring. It simply and absolutely just means:

• ‘He who does the work the Father give him to do’

God, who you correctly state is ‘The Father’, gave Jesus Christ a commission. Jesus perfectly carries out the commission - the work the Father gave him to do.

Heavenly angels are ‘SONS of God’ because they, too, carry out the work that God gives them to do.

Those of the ELECT will also become ‘Sons of God’, and as such will also become HEIRS OF GOD, BROTHERS with Jesus Christ.

Oh, so by your belief, the Elect will also be GOD along with Jesus Christ?

 

[Soapy]

David wrote two things Psalms 2:12 kiss the "Son" lest he be angry and his wrath is kindled but a little and ye perish in the way __ speaking of the Son of God ..... Psalms 110:1 and *The Lord* said unto *My Lord* sit thou at my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool .... One is The Lord who is our Father the other is My Lord who is our Lord God Yahweh / Yeshua / Jesus.

Daniel 3:25 and lo I see four men unbound an unharmed and walking around in the fire and the form of the fourth looks like the Son of God ..... Different form, different form from the human form, that is recognizable to be the Son of God.....

Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a SON is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.......... We are *given* to the Son, he is the true King/Prince/ Ruler of the world ___ he is the *Mighty God* of this world ___ he is the *Everlasting Father* (the Word of God of our Father, the one who accomplished all things - who is one with our Father, one can say in human terms and exact clone and if humans can accomplish cloning, what do you think God can do? ____ and he is also the Prince of Peace

Isaiah 7:14 and a virgin / maiden shall conceive and bear a Son and his name shall be called Emmanuel, meaning God with Us._____

Who is the Spirit of the Lord other than the Holy Spirit? In the Old Testament just considered as God's spirit or the Spirit of the Lord in the New Testament the Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit
14 Bible verses about The Spirit Of The Lord

The spirit of God working or abiding in people
41 Bible verses about The Spirit Of God


Trinitarians didn't add Jesus and the Holy Ghost /Spirit _ they are written of in the Old Testament and when two different prophets say that the child will be called Almighty God, God with Us, Everlasting Father - the Trinity was established.

The only God, the One True God, having no other Gods, he is God all by Himself simply means he is Our God and there is no one else for us to turn to just like what's written in the New Testament when he says I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the father except by him.
The first commandment is: Thou shalt not put no other God before me......

‘I am the way, the truth, and the light’ is not God!

Jesus is saying that ‘HE is the way to get back to God…:

• He is THE WAY back to God;
• He is telling THE TRUTH about God
• He is THE LIGHT that leads to God

This is all linked to the good shepherd leading those willing sheep back to the penfold of the OWNER of the sheep (A Shepherd is not the owner of the sheep).

Jesus was SENT BY THE OWNER (God) OF THE SHEEP TO LEAD THEM BACK TO HIM (God).

The only way to reach GOD is by way of believing in the servant - and the words of God taught to the servant - that God sent and if the servant is not believed then how can you believe in God who sent the servant with the words to tell you?

• “whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

————————————————

Can you tell me what you think the title, ‘Everlasting Father’, pertains to?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Psalms 110:1 and *The Lord* said unto *My Lord* sit thou at my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool .... One is The Lord who is our Father the other is My Lord who is our Lord God Yahweh / Yeshua / Jesus.

King David wrote Psalms 110:1
You should look at the Hebrew again: “The LORD”, the first one, is Yahweh, Jesus’ Father, whom Jesus worshipped (John 20:17). The second Lord, “my Lord”, Jesus applied to himself at Matthew 22:41-45.
Jesus is not Yahweh…Jesus is the one ‘sitting at Yahweh’s right hand.’

 

[dybmh]

Isaiah 7:14 and a virgin / maiden shall conceive and bear a Son and his name shall be called Emmanuel, meaning God with Us._____

Anytime there's a miracle, that means "God with us".

 

[Brian2]

The Spirit of a thing is not the thing itself. The thing CONTROLS it’s Spirit. The spirit of a thing is a PROPERTY of the thing…

In our case, the Spirit of God is the spirit PROPERTY OF GOD.

See that little word, ‘Of’…? It definition the connection as a property:

• ‘The handle OF the door’

The handle is not the door. It is a property of the door.

The Son of God has NOTHING to do with a procreated offspring. It simply and absolutely just means:

• ‘He who does the work the Father give him to do’

God, who you correctly state is ‘The Father’, gave Jesus Christ a commission. Jesus perfectly carries out the commission - the work the Father gave him to do.

Heavenly angels are ‘SONS of God’ because they, too, carry out the work that God gives them to do.

Those of the ELECT will also become ‘Sons of God’, and as such will also become HEIRS OF GOD, BROTHERS with Jesus Christ.

Oh, so by your belief, the Elect will also be GOD along with Jesus Christ?

Exodus3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

So here we see that the angel of the LORD is actually the LORD.
Jesus is called the unique, the only Son of God. There is something special about Jesus and His Sonship.

 

[SDavis]

‘I am the way, the truth, and the light’ is not God!

Jesus is saying that ‘HE is the way to get back to God…:

• He is THE WAY back to God;
• He is telling THE TRUTH about God
• He is THE LIGHT that leads to God

This is all linked to the good shepherd leading those willing sheep back to the penfold of the OWNER of the sheep (A Shepherd is not the owner of the sheep).

Jesus was SENT BY THE OWNER (God) OF THE SHEEP TO LEAD THEM BACK TO HIM (God).

The only way to reach GOD is by way of believing in the servant - and the words of God taught to the servant - that God sent and if the servant is not believed then how can you believe in God who sent the servant with the words to tell you?

• “whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

————————————————

Can you tell me what you think the title, ‘Everlasting Father’, pertains to?

Humans have a tendency to interpret scripture differently. Why, so many different denominations.

John 1:1 says that the Word of God was with God and the Word of God was God.
1:3 Says the world was created by Him says 1:14 say the Word became flesh and dwelt among Us 1:10-11 the *world* and his own knew him not

Jesus said before Abraham was I Am calling himself Yahweh

Thomas said to Jesus my Lord and my God

Jesus said no man has seen the Father but the Son that the Father is *SPIRIT*
So either one believes in scripture or one doesn't..... Who walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the garden (Genesis 3:8-24 is a bit more detailed, learn about what actual transpired) ____ who walked and talked with The offspring of Adam and Eve down to Methuselah and took Enoch Genesis 4 & 5 _____ who came to Noah and told Noah to build an ark _____ who is the Word of the Lord that came to the prophets (example Jeremiah 1:4) ____ who did Abraham see and talk to Genesis 18 ____ who did Jacob wrestle with , an angel or God_ who appeared to David (2 Chronicles 3:1)and Solomon (2 Chronicles 1:7 it doesn't say in a dream or vision)

Each time Jesus said I Am - he was also referring to himself as Yahweh since Yahweh means I Am that I Am.

Even the Pharisees and Sadducees wanted to kill Jesus. They said he was blasphemous because Jesus made himself equal to God.

But in my studies I have learned that there are many Christians that don't believe that Jesus was God _ they don't believe in any form of divinity of Jesus _ and many don't believe he's the only way to heaven. So those who have the opportunity to learn also has the right to believe what they choose.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Jesus prayed to whom? Himself? No!
In fact, Jesus prayed to his Father, Yahweh, at John 17:3…”This means everlasting life, their [mankind] taking in knowledge of You, the Only True God, and of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (Who was Jesus praying to? Vs.1 tells us: his Father.)

What do Jesus’ words here clearly tell us?

We need to ‘take in knowledge of / come to know’ two people: Jehovah/Yahweh “and” His Son.

(Learning about Jesus, then, is not enough. Coming to know both of them, and acting accordingly, means life!)


He called his Father, “the Only True God”; He did not include himself.

And according to Exodus 20, as I stated earlier, Yahweh requires exclusive worship; Him alone.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus prayed to whom? Himself? No!
In fact, Jesus prayed to his Father, Yahweh, at John 17:3…”This means everlasting life, their [mankind] taking in knowledge of You, the Only True God, and of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (Who was Jesus praying to? Vs.1 tells us: his Father.)

What do Jesus’ words here clearly tell us?

We need to ‘take in knowledge of / come to know’ two people: Jehovah/Yahweh “and” His Son.

(Learning about Jesus, then, is not enough. Coming to know both of them, and acting accordingly, means life!)

Knowing the Father and His Son is not a matter of becoming a Bible Student and studying the Bible.
How do you get to know them?
Getting to know someone is a two way thing, and they get to know you at the same time. To some at the final judgement Jesus will say, "I never knew you".

He called his Father, “the Only True God”; He did not include himself.

And according to Exodus 20, as I stated earlier, Yahweh requires exclusive worship; Him alone.

I would say that if we know the Son we know the Father.
I would say that the Son is called YHWH in the scriptures.

 

[Soapy]

Exodus3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

So here we see that the angel of the LORD is actually the LORD.
Jesus is called the unique, the only Son of God. There is something special about Jesus and His Sonship.

No, Brian2, you are doing this as a way of avoiding answering my questions.

Your responses has nothing to do with my questions to you.

 

[Soapy]

Knowing the Father and His Son is not a matter of becoming a Bible Student and studying the Bible.
How do you get to know them?
Getting to know someone is a two way thing, and they get to know you at the same time. To some at the final judgement Jesus will say, "I never knew you".



I would say that if we know the Son we know the Father.
I would say that the Son is called YHWH in the scriptures.

Jesus will say, "I never knew you".

You may well be right about this part, for sure.

And there will be many. That is why I try to warn all posters who are posting wrongful ideologies.
I know many are posting for amusement - just to frustrate others who may be telling the truth but if will do such wrongful posters no good in the long run.

 

[Soapy]

Exodus3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

So here we see that the angel of the LORD is actually the LORD.
Jesus is called the unique, the only Son of God. There is something special about Jesus and His Sonship.

Yahweh is an Angel…?
God is an Angel …?

I haven't heard that one before!!

I was thinking that God spoke his word through an agency like: angels, prophets, and holy men.

 

[Brian2]

I know many are posting for amusement - just to frustrate others who may be telling the truth but if will do such wrongful posters no good in the long run.

Ha the truth comes out about why you are posting here.

 

[Brian2]

Yahweh is an Angel…?
God is an Angel …?

I haven't heard that one before!!

I was thinking that God spoke his word through an agency like: angels, prophets, and holy men.

Yes I have told you it before.
Exodus 3, read it and you will see that YHWH sent His messenger to the bush and that YHWH was in the bush speaking from the bush.
To me that means the the Father (YHWH) in heaven sent the Son (YHWH) into the bush as His messenger (angel).

 

[dybmh]

Exodus3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

So here we see that the angel of the LORD is actually the LORD.
Jesus is called the unique, the only Son of God. There is something special about Jesus and His Sonship.

Moses saw an angel... and heard a voice. The angel was not speaking, and the voice did not come from the angel. But everything that is holy, everything divine is part of God. There is only 1 divine power. So moses hid his face because he was overwhelmed by divinity that seemed to be surrounding him.

 

[Brian2]

Moses saw an angel... and heard a voice. The angel was not speaking, and the voice did not come from the angel. But everything that is holy, everything divine is part of God. There is only 1 divine power. So moses hid his face because he was overwhelmed by divinity that seemed to be surrounding him.

Moses saw a burning bush and heard the voice of YHWH speaking from within the bush.
Moses hid his face because he did not want to look on God.
Created angels are not part of God and the physical creation is not part of God.

 

[Soapy]

Yes I have told you it before.
Exodus 3, read it and you will see that YHWH sent His messenger to the bush and that YHWH was in the bush speaking from the bush.
To me that means the the Father (YHWH) in heaven sent the Son (YHWH) into the bush as His messenger (angel).

YHWH sent his messenger to the bush - and YHWH WAS IN THAT BUSH…!!!?

So, to you, YHWH IN HEAVEN sent His Son - a messenger GOD??? Isn’t that the Greek mythological ‘Hermes’??

So, to you, God is a messenger - an angel OF GOD …

Brian2, …. !!!!

 

[Eli G]

The first-century Jews who became Christians knew full well that it was an angel who spoke for Jehovah to Moses from the bush.

(ASV) Acts 7:30 And when forty years were fulfilled, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush.
31 And when Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold, there came a voice of the Lord, 32 I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob. And Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
33 And the Lord said unto him, Loose the shoes from thy feet: for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
34 I have surely seen the affliction of my people that is in Egypt, and have heard their groaning, and I am come down to deliver them: and now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? him hath God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the hand of the angel that appeared to him in the bush.

Jesus said to the Jews::

John 5:36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent.