‘Jesus was WITH GOD’ therefore Jesus WAS GOD?

[101G]

now back to the topic.
A. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

B. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

did either one of the scriptures said, "TO" God? NO.... but "WITH" God. what did that tell us?

@ rosends, what do the term "With" God mean to You

101G.

 

[rosends]

now back to the topic.
A. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

B. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

did either one of the scriptures said, "TO" God? NO.... but "WITH" God. what did that tell us?

@ rosends, what do the term "With" God mean to You

101G.

in those verses? who cares? Just more of your fiction.

 

[Zwing]

LOL, LOL, LOL, U had me rolling on the floor there,,,, Ah!...... it's just amazing U jump right on that didn't U? keep up the gooooood work... (smile) lol, lol, lol, we got to put you on the Ed Sulivan show.

Ah, well…if I can’t convince you to stop doing it, at least we can both laugh about it.

 

[101G]

in those verses? who cares? Just more of your fiction.

ok, let do it in the OT, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." how is the First "With" the Last?

101G.

 

[101G]

Ah, well…if I can’t convince you to stop doing it, at least we can both laugh about it.

well said. now, let's get serious and back on scripture. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

and now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

now be honest, is this the same one "PERSON" who is the First and the Last?

101G.

 

[101G]

now this, the Word that was "WITH" God in John 1:1 and this same Word said in John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"ALL THINGS?", let's check the Record,

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

what do Isaiah 44:24 say to us?
A. the LORD ... all capitalization made all things.
B. he was alone, so he didn't go throught anyone else.
C. and by being ALONE, there is no one else who is omni-present.

meaning the person in John 1:3 is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24, else one has two separate CREATORS, which is anti-bible.

101G

 

[Zwing]

Yes, I know the rigmarole as I used to be a Christian. I have evaluated the doctrines of the faith, and reject them for apparent baselessness.

 

[rosends]

ok, let do it in the OT, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." how is the First "With" the Last?

101G.

You mean:
Who worked and did, Who calls the generations from the beginning; I, the Lord, am first, and with the last ones I am He.

so God is talking about his presence until the last generations. But the funny part...the really funny part, is your belief that the Hebrew word there means "with." That is a function of the Jewish commentary on the verse because the word that means "with" is NOT in the verse. So you want to co-opt the Jewish understanding but then deny the Jewish understanding. You are priceless!

 

[blü 2]

This should be a very short debate:

• If Jesus was ‘WITH God’ how could he ‘BE GOD’?
• Who is ‘GOD’ that Jesus was ‘WITH’?

There are five versions of Jesus in the NT, one each from Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

Each of those Jesuses expressly denies that he's God eg

(Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

​

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes [...] asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; [...] 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

​

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”​

​

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

​

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

​

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

​

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

and never claims to be God. It's sometimes claimed that John's Jesus (John 8:58) claims to be God with the words "Before Abraham was, I am." However, the Jesus of John, like the Jesus of Paul but unlike the synoptic Jesuses, is from the gnostic tradition and as such was an angelic style of being who not only lived in heaven with God from early on, but in the role of the gnostic demiurge created the material world ─

I Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

Even so, the political problems of having the central character in Christianity not God led early on to versions of Jesus=God, but the Trinity doctrine didn't become official till the 4th century. Part of its attraction may be that it's incoherent, since it claims that the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost but is 100% of God, Jesus is not the Father or the Ghost but is 100% of God and the Ghost is not the Father or Jesus but is 100% of God. That of course adds up to 300% = 3 Gods. The incoherence arises because that obvious result is expressly denied.

​

 

[Sargonski]

I know because the blind cannot see. and on top of that you cannot prove 101G is in ERROR, for if you could you would have already but you cannot...... (smile).

Nonsense, get that Greek mythology out of you head. "battling with YHWH?" Oh how IGNORANT.

that's the problem right there, LISTEN TO GOD.

and they as well as U are just in ERROR as three left shoes.

son of God are HUMANS, just as those whom Adam and Eve had in the Garden, as well as Job.

101G.

sorry 101G -- but .. YOU ARE IN ERROR .. "Oh How Ignorant" The blind Can not See " "battling with YHWH?"

Good Grief mate -- your going into some kind of Fundamentalist Denial Land -- can not deal with what is stated in the Bible .

In Psalm 82 YHWH -- like the Sons of the Elohim -- is battling the Sons of the Supreme one.

Speaking before the Divine Council of EL -- YHWH delivers the verdict and Says - "You are gods; all of you are sons of the Supreme one.’[n] 7 Yet you will die like mortals;[o] you will fall like all the other rulers.”[p] 8 Rise up, O God, and execute judgment on the earth!

YHWH executing Judgement on the Gods - Sons of the Supreme one -- is "battling with YHWH"

now tell me about the ignorant blind who can not see. .. what is right before their eyes.

What part of "Sons of Gods" means "Sons of Gods" is not getting through ? .. Elohim is not a word for Mortal "Sons of the Elohim" ..

Elohim = "NOT Mortal" when used as a Noun. which is the case here - and in many other places.

come on G -- cat got tongue ? Who are the "Sons of the Supreme one" --- ?? you don't call Magistrates "Sons of the Supreme one" .. an epiphet for El .. whose council YHWH is speaking before. .. and El is not a Human either.

Answer lest yer position be crucified .. and can't move hands to type .. asked you this 10 times now .. who is this big supreme one these folks are all sons of .. from the perspective of the folks who were singing this song in Church .. Pagan Pantheon believers each and every one. .. or did you not get that out of the Bible either ? Were your eyes too glased over by the Male and Female Temple Prostitutes .. the Asherah Idols .. or the High place out back for child sacrifice to God YHWH .. to figure out that the Isratelites believed in a Divine Pantheon .. as did all the peopoles around them.. El at the head of the Assembly

"YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the Elohim [d] he renders judgment.[e"

Who is the "Supreme One" ? --- Cat Got tongue ? too blind to see .. position too crucified to type ? come on G .. is time to shine.

 

[Sargonski]

now back to the topic.
A. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

B. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

did either one of the scriptures said, "TO" God? NO.... but "WITH" God. what did that tell us?

@ rosends, what do the term "With" God mean to You

101G.

Exhibiting a typical depth of mis- understanding in the first part -- but tricked by an intentional mistranslation in the second part.

In the first part -- why would you quote Pauline writings to make a case for Jesus claiming to be God . Paul never knew Jesus .. and tells us next to nothing about his life -- not even becomming Christian until years after the death of our lord ?

The second part -- The Logos is not God .. B. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The greek word .. is not "Word" .. the term is Logos. "In the beginning there was the Logos . and the Logos was With God . and the Logos Was God"

The reason the Bible Dictionary tells you there is no Jesus claiming to be "the Father" aka Trinity Statement --- in the NT .. is because sholars and theologins know that the author of John -- was using hellenistic philosophical ideas .. which came down to the author from Jewish Philosophers at the time .. one of which was the Logos concept .. very much one of the roots of Christian Gnosis .. but that is another story.

The author was using terms he knew the greek audience would understand .. The Logos is the emissary between Man and God .. an emination from the Godhead of sorts .. and so Jesus is that go between .. at the same time he is "The word" which Logos also means

So in the begining there was the Godhead .. "The Word" .. associated with Gods Will .. God Wills creation into existence.

and the word was with God .. The Logos was With God -- this is claiming Jesus was Pre-existent with God -- something that is not done in the synoptic Gospels.. -- something which is highly problematic .. but that is another story.

and the word Was God --- again we have a play on the double meaning of Logos .. which at the same time means word in this case. . Jesus is the representation of the Word of God .. Jesus then "IS" Gods Word ... Incarnate .. but yet fully man .. a mortal who speaks God's word through the Holy Spirit and thus is the embodiment of Gods Word.

In NO WAY -- is the Author of John Claiming that Jesus was "The Father" --- and no one believed this at the time . none of the Church Fathers believed that Jesus was "The Father" .. took 200 years for that idea even to be mentioned .. called out as Heresy at the time .. and more than a century after that for this silly Dogma to get legs.

 

[Zwing]

why would you quote Pauline writings to make a case for Jesus claiming to be God . Paul never knew Jesus .. and tells us next to nothing about his life

Paul doesn’t even write about the man Jesus, rarely even mentioning the name. He wrote about his conceptual figure, adapted, supernaturalized and Hellenized from the Jewish concept of the “anointed king” (מָשִׁיחַ), which he called “Christ”. Paul’s “Christ” bore little resemblance to the historical Jesus (as you note, Paul never knew Jesus), and he was apparently in constant trouble with the Jerusalem-based leaders of the “Jesus”/“Yeshuite” movement within Judaism, such as James and Simon/Peter, who as leaders of that movement thought themselves Paul’s ‘superiors’, for the particular un-Jewishness of his teachings and for the concessions to Jewish tradition and practice that he was making as he ran around Asia Minor accepting all these Greeks into what he was calling by the old Greek political name “ecclesia”. Needless to say, the weight of those numbers meant that Paul’s vision eventually won out as the “Jesus movement” within Judaism was marginalized into obscurity (undoubtedly a good thing for Judaism). All this nonsense about Jesus being God derives from Paul’s inventive “Christ” figure, which is purely the product of his imagination and was created to appeal to the Greek mind of that day. Jesus doctrinally became God as Paul’s “Christ” figure and the legendary (as opposed to historical) Jesus of the nascent Church became conflated into one supernatural figure.

EDIT: Saul/Paul, who is the true father of Christianity from a doctrinal standpoint, is a fascinating figure himself. We really know nothing about him, save several questionable claims, such as his claimed origin in Tarsus on the south Anatolian coast, and being descended from a Pharisaic family line. We don’t really even know for fact that he was actually Jewish; the development of his thinking would seem to suggest otherwise. Certainly, he represents a remarkable historical personage, though not necessarily a good one.

 

[Colt]

"Although Divinity may be plural in manifestation, in human experience Deity is singular, always one. Neither is spiritual ministry plural in human experience. Regardless of plurality of origin, all spirit influences are one in function. Indeed they are one, being the spirit ministry of God the Sevenfold in and to the creatures of the grand universe; and as creatures grow in appreciation of, and receptivity for, this unifying ministry of the spirit, it becomes in their experience the ministry of God the Supreme." UB 1955

IMOP Plural manifestation does nothing to contradict the Oneness of God.

It was and is a requirement by the father for the subordinate Creator Sons in their respective creations to incarnate as one of their own created types of humans and live subject to the will of the Father just as man is expected to live. This would explain one of the facets of the person of Jesus of Nazareth who was a miraculous individual.

 

[101G]

Yes, I know the rigmarole as I used to be a Christian. I have evaluated the doctrines of the faith, and reject them for apparent baselessness.

GINOLJC, to all.
ok, 101G hear you, but was it that denomination taught faith, or the Word of God taught Faith? I was taught in ERROR myself also, but I went to God and asked him to teach me. and he did. I could have just walked away angry, but my spirit that God gave me wouldn't let me do that. so, I took responsibility for myself and let God teach me. and now I have no regrets. for A. I'm free of IGNORANCE of God Word. B. Satisfied with this LIFE and the expected life to come. C. have no fears in this LIFE. and lastly D. for 101G there is no more MYSTERY in the Word of God for me. all have been revealed for me. So, I give my, our Father an A+ rating, which is not enough, but more that an A+ ... other words I'm completely satisfied in the Lord Jesus now that I KNOW THE TRUTH.

but to you. as said I hear you. if I may ask, what was it that you evaluated that changed your mind from being a Christian? just for the KNOWLEDGE BASE and future reference.... thanks in advance.

101G.

 

[101G]

You mean:
Who worked and did, Who calls the generations from the beginning; I, the Lord, am first, and with the last ones I am He.

so God is talking about his presence until the last generations. But the funny part...the really funny part, is your belief that the Hebrew word there means "with." That is a function of the Jewish commentary on the verse because the word that means "with" is NOT in the verse. So you want to co-opt the Jewish understanding but then deny the Jewish understanding. You are priceless!

personal Opinion? which 101G can careless about. ... NOW, since you're IGNORANT of God Word totally here in Isaiah 41:4. let's go to Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

we know God is the "FIRST", now who is the "LAST" here in Isaiah 48:12? your answer please.

101G.

 

[101G]

sorry 101G -- but .. YOU ARE IN ERROR .. "Oh How Ignorant" The blind Can not See " "battling with YHWH?"

Good Grief mate -- your going into some kind of Fundamentalist Denial Land -- can not deal with what is stated in the Bible .

In Psalm 82 YHWH -- like the Sons of the Elohim -- is battling the Sons of the Supreme one.

Speaking before the Divine Council of EL -- YHWH delivers the verdict and Says - "You are gods; all of you are sons of the Supreme one.’[n] 7 Yet you will die like mortals;[o] you will fall like all the other rulers.”[p] 8 Rise up, O God, and execute judgment on the earth!

YHWH executing Judgement on the Gods - Sons of the Supreme one -- is "battling with YHWH"

now tell me about the ignorant blind who can not see. .. what is right before their eyes.

What part of "Sons of Gods" means "Sons of Gods" is not getting through ? .. Elohim is not a word for Mortal "Sons of the Elohim" ..

Elohim = "NOT Mortal" when used as a Noun. which is the case here - and in many other places.

come on G -- cat got tongue ? Who are the "Sons of the Supreme one" --- ?? you don't call Magistrates "Sons of the Supreme one" .. an epiphet for El .. whose council YHWH is speaking before. .. and El is not a Human either.

Answer lest yer position be crucified .. and can't move hands to type .. asked you this 10 times now .. who is this big supreme one these folks are all sons of .. from the perspective of the folks who were singing this song in Church .. Pagan Pantheon believers each and every one. .. or did you not get that out of the Bible either ? Were your eyes too glased over by the Male and Female Temple Prostitutes .. the Asherah Idols .. or the High place out back for child sacrifice to God YHWH .. to figure out that the Isratelites believed in a Divine Pantheon .. as did all the peopoles around them.. El at the head of the Assembly

"YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the Elohim [d] he renders judgment.[e"

Who is the "Supreme One" ? --- Cat Got tongue ? too blind to see .. position too crucified to type ? come on G .. is time to shine.

you're still blind .... and still cannot see. this psalm is about JUDGMENTS, Righteous Judgments. listen and Learn. the TERM GOD,
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

do you know what a "magistrate" is? if not listen, a civil officer or lay judge who administers the law, especially one who conducts a court that deals with minor offenses and holds preliminary hearings for more serious ones.

NOW READ PSALMS 82 AGAIN WITH JUDGMENTS IN MIND AND YOU WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER.

My God how hard is it.... to understand.

101G.

 

[rosends]

personal Opinion? which 101G can careless about. ... NOW, since you're IGNORANT of God Word totally here in Isaiah 41:4. let's go to Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

we know God is the "FIRST", now who is the "LAST" here in Isaiah 48:12? your answer please.

101G.

Since you have run away from the material I gave you and are now dancing to another verse, I will school you on this one as well and help you get over your ignorance.

Since God says "I am the first" and God also continues saying "I am also the last" then God is the first and the last. If you want, I can explain how the word "last" in these two verses is different because one is written in the singular and one is in the plural. I could also point out how one speaks of generations and uses a word which you accept translated as "with" making the plural "lasts" as an object of the preposition as opposed to the singular subject (pred adjective) in 48:12.

 

[101G]

In the first part -- why would you quote Pauline writings to make a case for Jesus claiming to be God . Paul never knew Jesus .. and tells us next to nothing about his life -- not even becomming Christian until years after the death of our lord ?

Paul KNEW the Lord Jesus. read Acts chapter 9. and it was GOD, the Lord "JESUS" himself who made Paul his Minister.

101G.

 

[101G]

Since God says "I am the first" and God also continues saying "I am also the last" then God is the first and the last.

that's the Lord Jesus... LOL, LOL, LOL,

If you want, I can explain how the word "last" in these two verses is different because one is written in the singular and one is in the plural.

No, I already know, but for you on Isaiah 41:4 we suggest you consult the Brown-Driver-Briggs dictionary,

b. of time, latter or last (according to context) Exodus 4:8; Deuteronomy 24:3; 2 Samuel 19:12; Isaiah 8:23, of God Isaiah 44:6 ("" רִאשׁוֺן) Isaiah 48:12 (do.) compare Isaiah 41:4; in Genl. subsequent (vaguely), ׳יוֺם א = time to come Isaiah 30:8; Proverbs 31:25 (but Nehemiah 8:18 הַיוֺם ׳הָאַ = the last day), ׳(הָ)אַ (הַ)דּוֺר the following Generation Deuteronomy 29:21; Psalm 48:14; Psalm 78:4; Psalm 78:6; Psalm 102:19, (הָ)אַחֲרֹנִים they that come after Job 18:20 (Ges Schl) Ecclesiastes 1:11; Ecclesiastes 4:16, but Isaiah 41:4 the last,

and here is the LINK Strong's Hebrew: 314. אַחֲרוֹן (acharon) -- coming after or behind

101G.

 

[rosends]

that's the Lord Jesus... LOL, LOL, LOL,

No it isn't -- that's just your opinion.

No, I already know, but for you on Isaiah 41:4 we suggest you consult the Brown-Driver-Briggs dictionary,

b. of time, latter or last (according to context) Exodus 4:8; Deuteronomy 24:3; 2 Samuel 19:12; Isaiah 8:23, of God Isaiah 44:6 ("" רִאשׁוֺן) Isaiah 48:12 (do.) compare Isaiah 41:4; in Genl. subsequent (vaguely), ׳יוֺם א = time to come Isaiah 30:8; Proverbs 31:25 (but Nehemiah 8:18 הַיוֺם ׳הָאַ = the last day), ׳(הָ)אַ (הַ)דּוֺר the following Generation Deuteronomy 29:21; Psalm 48:14; Psalm 78:4; Psalm 78:6; Psalm 102:19, (הָ)אַחֲרֹנִים they that come after Job 18:20 (Ges Schl) Ecclesiastes 1:11; Ecclesiastes 4:16, but Isaiah 41:4 the last,

and here is the LINK Strong's Hebrew: 314. אַחֲרוֹן (acharon) -- coming after or behind

101G.

LOL LOL -- 41:4 doesn't have אַחֲרוֹן, it has אַחֲרֹנִים
מִֽי־פָעַ֣ל וְעָשָׂ֔ה קֹרֵ֥א הַדֹּר֖וֹת מֵרֹ֑אשׁ אֲנִ֤י יְהֹוָה֙ רִאשׁ֔וֹן וְאֶת־אַחֲרֹנִ֖ים אֲנִי־הֽוּא

remember, according to what you just posted, that means "they that come after" IN THE PLURAL. Can't you read?

Such ignorance!