lunamoth
Will to love
Oh yes! Please change it! I knew that was bugging me for some reason!
Added: Thanks Katz!
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Is Hell a Basic Christian Tenet?
- Thread starter lunamoth
- Start date
Oh yes! Please change it! I knew that was bugging me for some reason!
Added: Thanks Katz!
Booko
Deviled Hen
It's been my experience that those who hold fast to such a view tend to...not get out much. It's easy to think "oh everyone has a chance!" ...go to China and tell me that's actually true. Didn't they just arrest a guy for preaching the Gospel there this week?
Yes, over a *billion* people alive today are doomed to rot in hell eternally for the "sin" of being born in China while it had an oppressive gov't.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You are absolutely right. Plus, just think of the number of people who lived either prior to Jesus Christ or immediately after He did, but in parts of the world where Christianity had not yet reached. It is literally impossible to accept as true something you've never heard taught.It's been my experience that those who hold fast to such a view tend to...not get out much. It's easy to think "oh everyone has a chance!" ...go to China and tell me that's actually true. Didn't they just arrest a guy for preaching the Gospel there this week?
Yes, over a *billion* people alive today are doomed to rot in hell eternally for the "sin" of being born in China while it had an oppressive gov't.
Assuming (for the sake of argument) that Jesus Christ really is the only way we human beings can be reconciled to God, it would make no sense whatsoever for God to condemn anyone without having first given him the knowledge required to make the right choice. For millions of people, that knowledge is not going to come during their mortal existence. I am also convinced that each of us is the product of our background, environment, culture, experiences, etc. and that there are some people for whom Christianity is not going to be the obvious choice. I realize that, from a Baha'i perspective, this is a moot point, but from a Christian perspective, the only conceivable way God could be both merciful and just would be if He were to make sure nobody ended up in the room Midnight Blue described without giving them enough information beforehand to choose the right button. When it gets right down to it, my belief that we will continue to gain knowledge in a Spirit World after we die is one of the biggest factors that Mormonism makes sense to me and why other denominations of Christianity don't.
I cannot believe how many Christians will simply argue that the situation you have described simply does not exist. I can't wait to hear Vassal's answer.
I think a more accurate assesment of that line of (non)thinking could be translated, "It doesn't effect me, so it doesn't count".
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I don't have the answers to everything, Rhonda. I can only live my life according to my own convictions.
Hell isn't a happy concept to ponder on but I still believe it exists. I'm comfortable with my beliefs and I sincerely hope that you are comfortable with your own.
I believe that first and foremost...God is a just and LOVING God. And I believe that whatever happens to each of us after we pass on is just. I don't claim to know what will happen to everyone, either. I can only speak on what I believe will happen to me.
I did my best to compare my relationship with my children to God's relationship with His own children. No doubt, it's not a perfect comparison.
But I disagree that all that we know of God comes from a book. I believe that God can be spoken to and we can get to know Him but to do so, we have to abandon to His will for our lives.
I'm not God.
And again, I don't claim to have the answers to everything. I trust God. I don't believe that hell is the cards for me.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
My problem was that if someone happened to be born into a family where they had no inkling that one button was labeled "Christ Jesus" they would be in for eternal torment because they were unlucky to be born somewhere where Christianity was not to popular -- or even heard of. They'd be "gassed" alright -- with no way to be reconciled. They'd be eternally gassed.
I suspect I'm not the only person who has this difficulty with the idea of eternal hell and who supposedly ends up there.
I honestly have no idea what will happen to those who never knew or heard of Christ. I simply trust that whatever does happen is just and is in God's hands.
Buttercup
Veteran Member
I wasn't necessarily expecting you to have the one and only answer to the question....I merely wanted to know if you'd consider continuing conversation about why some of us view a literal place of hell as having flaws when coupled with a loving God. You don't see a conflict with a finite amount of sin being punished for all eternity? You don't see that as overkill?
Feel free to bow out of the conversation if you don't feel comfortable and please know that I am not trying to rile you up. For me, this is a cornerstone issue. The whole issue of hell makes or breaks Christianity for me.
If I died tonight, I would go to hell because I am questioning and not believing in the Jesus of the bible anymore. I have questions so I guess I'm a heretic. I don't believe anymore so I guess I deserve eternal fire. I don't get it.
Mercy Not Sacrifice
Well-Known Member
For the more fundamentalist versions of Christianity, belief in Hell is vital. Their claim to a need to "surrender to Christ" (put in quotes because that's hard to define) comes unglued without a catastrophic outcome for not doing so.
For much more liberal Christianity, however, Hell seems to take on a variety of other forms:
- Hell is indeed permanent, but only the worst of the worst--Hitler, child molesters, serial rapists, etc.--go there. The average Joe sinner will not.
- Hell is temporal, and once people have "served their time," they are released to Purgatory, Heaven, or possibly even back to Earth.
- Hell only exists for Satan and the demons, not people.
- Hell as we know it does not exist.
You summed up my thoughts well (including some pointers that I did not know).
Well here's the thing. In some places, he describes Hell as a "lake of fire," and usually in lakes of fires, whatever is inside is destroyed quickly; in other words, no eternity, just death and the end. In other places, he describes Hell as a place with "weeping and gnashing of teeth," which would imply that the tormented soul survives the torment:
Matthew 8:11-12
Matthew 22:12-13
Matthew 24:50-51
Matthew 25:29-30
Luke 13:27-28
Quite frankly, it seems that as much as Liberal Christianity espouses a Jesus that doesn't preach eternal damnation, several of his teachings may well have to be dropped to consistently maintain this view.
Same. My theory is that the more that people invest in the afterlife, the less that they invest in this life. I have heard atheists go so far as to decry Christianity a sort of pyramid scheme for that very reason, and frankly, because of its history, such an idea cannot be totally dismissed.
This is ironic, because Jesus clearly commands his followers to take care of people (Matthew 22:39) and things (Matthew 25:14-30) in this world.
Booko
Deviled Hen
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I don't share your struggles but I am trying to understand where you're coming from.
Do you consider an eternity with God in heaven as overkill for living a Godly life? What could we possibly do in this life to warrant such an awesome reward in the next life?
I'll gladly bow out if anyone feels I'm not contributing anything, here. I'm not at all uncomfortable discussing my thoughts on hell. But I guess, I've already stated them.
We should question, Rhonda. That's how we grow and become closer to God. Only you know whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ. Only you know who Christ is in your life...in your heart. Christ is LOVE. His teachings lead us to and keep us in Love, whether you embrace the concept of fire and brimstone or not.
Well, let me ask you this...
Respectfully, if I told God to take a hike because I didn't like the concept of hell, even though it's stated within the bible that God has offered me a way to skip hell altogether, could I really blame God for turning me away when I'm the one who didn't believe anymore?
I realize I'm not the chimp here, and that I'm merely giving my own opinion on the subject, but Rhonda's feelings on the matter was precisely the same reason why I struggled mightily for years on the subject. I prayed and prayed and read and studied, and I found no peace at all when the concept of an eternal hell was contemplated. Because of that lack of peace in my mind, I was not a nice person to be around. This "trust in Christ" method was an approach that I gave a huge effort to, and yet my spiritual life was nothing but torment for me and most everyone around me.
Now, to answer your question if you were to direct it to me (since I understand her struggles) is that my view of God would absolutely diminish if He could not forgive me if I couldn't come to terms with his rules. My understanding is that my own mercy and forgiveness is supposed to pale in comparison to God's, and that if I were to misunderstand him whilst struggling to make some sort of amends, I would expect him to use that "perfect justice" to be better than a wave of the hand telling me that I somehow CHOSE hell over him from a simple misunderstanding.
God and Christ might be obvious to people of faith. To others, it doesn't make sense. It's not like folks like me are just simply "in the know" and choosing to give 'em the middle finger...............it's a devoted effort to spiritual convictions that just might lead people like me to be simply mistaken (from the Christian God's point of view). From my point of view, 1) I don't interpret the Abrahamic God that way when I study the Bible on my own with an open heart, and 2) I personally could not be at peace if I were in heaven and others were suffering for eternity.
I do think that when it comes to belief, that the issue is hardly black or white. Beliefs are complex, multi-layered, and colored from our personal experiences. What does it mean to belive in Christ as one's Lord and Savior? What does it mean to leave your life in God's hands? What does it mean that no one is able to be with the Father except through Jesus? None of these questions is meant to be answered, but rhetorically to show just how vague the demands of God really are.
I really have to commend Buttercup for having the guts to question after 30 years of devout practice and study.
I only had serious study for 4 years, and most of those interpretations of the Bible is long forgotten after devoting my spiritual practice to enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings. Peace,
Mystic
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I can see what you're saying, Dawn, but what I believe Rhonda is saying is that the Bible (or, since we're talking about Jesus Christ, we could be more specific and say the New Testament) is simply a book of writings that some people believe to have come from God. But hundreds of millions of Muslims, for instance, don't accept the New Testament as God's word. Instead, they believe the Quran is. From their perspective, it would be blasphemous to base one's faith on the New Testament because it teaches things about Jesus Christ they don't believe to be true -- i.e. that He was God's Only Begotten Son and has the power to redeem us from our sins. The fact that something is stated in the Bible doesn't mean anything unless you can be sure that the Bible is the book you should base your beliefs on. I think she's just saying that it's impossible for anyone -- even someone who sincerely wants to make the right choice -- to know for sure what's true, and that it doesn't make sense for God to punish someone for eternity for having made the wrong decision (for instance, to accept Islam as the "truth" instead of Christianity).
Jesus came right out and said that the Kingdom of God was something inside of us;
Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. KJV
If that applies to "heaven" it would stand to reason that the same goes for hell, ie, that it isn't an actual place, but rather a state of mind.
Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. KJV
If that applies to "heaven" it would stand to reason that the same goes for hell, ie, that it isn't an actual place, but rather a state of mind.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I realize I'm not the chimp here, and that I'm merely giving my own opinion on the subject, but Rhonda's feelings on the matter was precisely the same reason why I struggled mightily for years on the subject. I prayed and prayed and read and studied, and I found no peace at all when the concept of an eternal hell was contemplated. Because of that lack of peace in my mind, I was not a nice person to be around. This "trust in Christ" method was an approach that I gave a huge effort to, and yet my spiritual life was nothing but torment for me and most everyone around me.
Now, to answer your question if you were to direct it to me (since I understand her struggles) is that my view of God would absolutely diminish if He could not forgive me if I couldn't come to terms with his rules. My understanding is that my own mercy and forgiveness is supposed to pale in comparison to God's, and that if I were to misunderstand him whilst struggling to make some sort of amends, I would expect him to use that "perfect justice" to be better than a wave of the hand telling me that I somehow CHOSE hell over him from a simple misunderstanding.
God and Christ might be obvious to people of faith. To others, it doesn't make sense. It's not like folks like me are just simply "in the know" and choosing to give 'em the middle finger...............it's a devoted effort to spiritual convictions that just might lead people like me to be simply mistaken (from the Christian God's point of view). From my point of view, 1) I don't interpret the Abrahamic God that way when I study the Bible on my own with an open heart, and 2) I personally could not be at peace if I were in heaven and others were suffering for eternity.
I do think that when it comes to belief, that the issue is hardly black or white. Beliefs are complex, multi-layered, and colored from our personal experiences. What does it mean to belive in Christ as one's Lord and Savior? What does it mean to leave your life in God's hands? What does it mean that no one is able to be with the Father except through Jesus? None of these questions is meant to be answered, but rhetorically to show just how vague the demands of God really are.
I really have to commend Buttercup for having the guts to question after 30 years of devout practice and study.
Peace,
Mystic
Respectfully, I was only answering her questions to the best of my ability.
I too commend Buttercup for questioning. I wish her the very best as she explores and learns and grows.
I can't apologize for believing as I do. I hope that my beliefs aren't offensive to you or others here but I believe that there is a real hell to avoid. God truly knows the struggles that I've had throughout my life and the the inner turmoil I've faced concerning Christianity and religion and just life... I am finally at peace with my beliefs.
And I pray the same for everyone else...wherever their hearts lead them.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I understand, Kathryn.
Sometimes, it isn't easy standing by your own convictions. That's all I'm doing.
I understand what Buttercup and Mystic are saying. I understand what you're saying loud and clear. I simply believe a bit differently.
My apologies for any assumptions, then. :flower:
I know you don't mean anything bad, Dawn, and that's what so freakin' endearing about you. First, you shouldn't apologize for your beliefs, but no one else should, either. If this belief brings you peace and engenders happiness for those around you, then this belief is by all accounts the best thing to come into your life. And secondly, from where I stand, you stand as an embodiment of what kind of Christian I wish I was when I followed the religion.
This is where I'll just wash my hands of it and let sleeping dogs lie. I've found as time has passed that it isn't the beliefs that might be offensive, but how the message is framed. So fear not, Dawny, you haven't been offensive in any way. It's an issue where you and I are on contrary positions on, but while we're alive and kickin', so what?
I'd rather spend the time headbangin' to some good metal bands with you.
Peace,
Mystic
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I'd rather spend the time headbangin' to some good metal bands with you.
Yes!
Or we could
to some unk:music!
Vassal
Member
Yes, it is relevant. His analogy presents God as the cause of the predicament, which is not the case. Each persons own choice to sin is the reason they need a savior, and God is the one who came to be that savior. If you dont want God to be your savior then that is your choice, but then you will have to pay the consequences for actions.
Everyone may not have heard about Christ, but everyone can clearly see that there is a creator. Everyone has the opportunity to seek out and ask God to make himself known to them. Even in the most remote parts of the world a person can make the effort to learn the truth about God if they desire to. If someone hasnt heard about Christ it is because they didnt make the effort to find him. Laziness isn't an excuse. It's your fate that is at stake, don't wait around for the truth to find you, make an effort to go find it.
applewuud
Active Member
To return to the OP's question--
No. But it's very interesting that this minister, in taking a Universalist theology, lost his flock. Rev. Carlton Pearson's website is www.newdimensions.us and he is a very interesting thinker. I'd disagree with ABC News' idea that "at least one minister doesn't believe in hell"...in my experience with mainline denominations, hell is something that's more likely to come up from the pews, not down from the pulpit. If you polled ministers about this topic, you'd find a higher proportion of "liberals" among the schooled ministry than among the laity on the topic of hell.
Despite the citations well mentioned in the thread above, when I began to study the Bible as a whole document, in context, instead of quoted in sermons and in threads like this, I was honestly surprised how little "hell" there is, especially out of the lips of Jesus of Nazareth, compared to the amount some Christians talk and think about hell. It doesn't seem to me to be the focus of Jesus' life and teaching as reflected in the Gospels. Those fire and brimstone passages exist, but so do many more grace and mercy passages. (Matthew Fox's "Original Blessing" is a wonderful theological exploration of these ideas.) I came to the conclusion that it is our culture, descended from Roman pagan culture, that emphasizes hellish punishment passages.
I'm not as familiar with chapter and verse as I once was, but if scripture is your basis, it emphasizes justice and compassion in this life, in the present day, much more than in a far-off end time. The Judaism of New Testament times had been influenced by Greek ideas about an afterlife, but the Old Testament is not very afterlife-centered. It is law-centered and historical Judaism was concerned about right practice in this world, not so much with an explicit description of heaven and hell.
Even in the New Testament, passages that in my youth I believed referred to an afterlife, in maturity I read as Jesus calling for justice and change in the present time. The "Kingdom of Heaven" passages were very well explained for me by C.H. Dodd in his landmark book "Parables of the Kingdom". In this interpretation, the Kingdom is something to be brought about by inspired human effort in the physical world. When Christians focus on the Gospels as being a personal-salvation-from-personal-sin story, it serves the interest of worldly powers that do not want the injustices of this world to be challenged by Christians. When it comes to meting out justice, Jesus treats financial wrongdoing severely (e.g., throwing moneychangers out of the Temple) and is comparatively easygoing on sexual sins ("go forth and sin no more"), but that is a subversive message in a world controlled by kings and emperors. Better to get people all concerned about a different world than this one--otherwise they might cause trouble!
It's the later books of the New Testament that emphasize the afterlife and hell, notably Revelations. Scholarship says that it was written long after the time of Jesus and the apostles, as Christianity had moved beyond its original Jewish context and into the Greco-Roman world. To me that lessens its authority compared to Mark, Matthew and Luke.
You want a very explicit and endlessly detailed description of everlasting punishment? Read the Koran, not the Hebrew or Christian bible. (After your skin is burned off in hell, new skins will be provided, according to Mohammed, PBUH.) It has occurred to me that one of the reasons some branches of Christian theology put more emphasis into hellish ideas was the exposure to Islam during and after the time of the Crusades, but my scholarship is thin on this point. Something to think about, though.
Another contributing factor to the theology of hell is a longing for justice in an unjust world, most particularly in the early centuries of the church as it reacted to the oppression of both Christianity and Judaism by the Romans. If you'd seen your sacred temple defiled and torn down, and your best friends crucified and thrown to the lions, with every opportunity for rebellion crushed, you'd postulate a fiery afterlife punishment even if it wasn't in your previous theology. (It was a few centuries before Emperor Constantine co-opted the Christian faith for Rome, after all.)
There are translation issues as well. What was the Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Greek word for "hell"? Is it the same word that was used to describe a burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem in biblical times? Does it refer to a place of non-conscious existence, a place of "shades" (translated as "darkness")? Is the red-faced man with the pitchfork and horns in charge of hel an effort by early evangelists to get pagans to turn away from their horned god?
So, there are many thoughtful and committed Christians who think that hell needs to be understood in the context it was presented in, and that the emphasis and understanding of it in contemporary times may be a pollution of the original intent of the authors of the Bible.
I'd add one more argument that a literal state of everlasting punishment is incompatible with God's plan: the inefficacy of delayed punishment. If the goal is to bring about a change in behavior in a child, or a dog, or any other living creature, delayed punishment doesn't work very well. "Negative reinforcement" (as a psychologist calls punishment) must be associated with the "sin" or misbehavior. Tossing someone into a lake of fire 20 years after they've dared to work on the Sabbath isn't going to keep the Sabbath day holy...they won't even know what they did. That's in the design of the universe clearly apparent before me. It would make God a monster to place such deception at the heart of the universe.
Hell exists in our distance from the source of all life, and in what we create for our fellows in our ignorance of the truth and awareness of our interrelatedness. It is not of God, which is a word I use to describe the source of creation, not destruction. Fear is not a promoter of faith.
To answer the OP, hell is not necessarily a basic tenet of Christianity, it may be a diversion and distraction from the other teachings of Jesus.
Osama bin Laden preaches heaven and hell; the astrophysicist Carl Sagan didn't believe in either. Sagan is closer to the source of all truth than Osama is, in my book.
Booko
Deviled Hen
And who exactly was it that set up the system?
You may wish to speak to some atheists about that. They don't seem to see it clearly at all.
My, that's compassion and understanding for you. Tell me, do you expect girls sold into prostitution have a lot of ability to "make an effort"? How about the people in the world who live in remote places, in conditions of blinding poverty and illiteracy?
My my..it's so easy for you to sit where you are, with all your material means, your education, and easy ability to find things out, to go making judgements like that about people the world over, who live in conditions you obviously can't even imagine.