metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Especially since both Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were tested more thoroughly than any other previous vaccine.
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The Irony of Creationist belief
- Thread starter sayak83
- Start date
Astrophile
Active Member
This is incorrect. Protons (hydrogen nuclei) and neutrons were formed about one microsecond after the Big Bang, and deuterium, helium and lithium nuclei were formed about three minutes after the Big Bang.
What happened 380,000 years after the BB is that the universe cooled enough for ions and electrons to recombine to form neutral atoms. At this point the universe was transformed from an opaque plasma into a transparent gas through which photons could propagate freely, thus producing the cosmic microwave background. The period of 380,000 years does not mean that the Earth was already in orbit around the Sun, nor does the time unit of a microsecond mean that caesium-133 atoms already existed.
Here is Oxford Bible commentary (a far more authoritative source)
Then God said,
“Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants
yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on
earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.” And
it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation:
plants yielding seed of every kind, and
trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed
in it. And God saw that it was good.
Note provided:-
Earth is a feminine noun in Heb. The text thus echoes other ancient mythologies
and the life cycle in having a feminine earth bring forth the first life in the universe (cf. Job 1.21). God
is involved only indirectly here, commanding the earth to put forth
24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth
living creatures of every kind: cattle and
creeping things and wild animals of the earth
of every kind.” And it was so. 25
Note:- 24–25: Again, earth is involved in bringing forth life
Your claim that the word "kind" must mean genus is total nonsense as these words are ancient Hebrew words and does not reflect the specific scientific differentiations that are products of 21st centure evolutionary biology (species, family, genus, order, taxa, phylum etc etc). We cannot expect such 1-1 matching with scientific terms here.
When the Bible divides animals into fish, birds, and land animals (wild and domestic) and then talks about "classes" between them, it is making it obvious that animals have natural classifications since they were created separately and there are bounderies between them.
In Hebrew, other terms that resemble the same concept are also used, like here:
Lev. 19:19a ‘You should keep my statutes: You must not interbreed two sorts of your domestic animals. ...’
This different word is the Hebrew כִּלְאַיִם which is been translated "mixture of various classes" or similar, and it can also be applied to different seeds to be planted in the same field, different fabrics to be combined in the same item of clothing.
So evidently the animals were separated into classifications.
These passages are very interesting and show other classifications of animals that the Israelites needed to seriously consider:
Deut. 14:9 “Of everything that is living in the waters, you may eat these: Anything with fins and scales, you may eat. 10 But you must not eat anything that has no fins and scales. It is unclean for you.
11 “You may eat any clean bird. 12 But you must not eat these: the eagle, the osprey, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, every kind of glede, 14 every kind of raven, 15 the ostrich, the owl, the gull, every kind of falcon, 16 the little owl, the long-eared owl, the swan, 17 the pelican, the vulture, the cormorant, 18 the stork, every kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat. 19 Every winged swarming creature also is unclean for you. They should not be eaten. 20 Any clean flying creature you may eat.
Lev. 11:1 Then Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron: 2 “Tell the Israelites, ‘These are the living creatures of the earth that you may eat: 3 Every animal that has a split hoof and a cleft in its hooves and that chews the cud may be eaten.
4 “‘But you must not eat these animals that chew the cud or have a split hoof: the camel, which chews the cud but does not have a split hoof. It is unclean for you. 5 Also the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not have a split hoof. It is unclean for you. 6 Also the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have a split hoof. It is unclean for you. 7 Also the pig, because it has a split hoof and a cleft in the hoof but does not chew the cud. It is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat any of their flesh or touch their dead body. They are unclean for you.
9 “‘This is what you may eat of everything in the waters: Anything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, it you may eat. 10 But anything in the seas and in the rivers that has no fins and scales, among all the swarming creatures and of every other living creature that is in the waters, it is a loathsome thing for you. 11 Yes, they should be loathsome to you, and you must not eat any of their flesh and you must loathe their carcasses. 12 Everything in the waters that has no fins and scales is a loathsome thing to you.
13 “‘These are the flying creatures that you are to loathe; they should not be eaten, for they are loathsome: the eagle, the osprey, the black vulture, 14 the red kite and every kind of black kite, 15 every kind of raven, 16 the ostrich, the owl, the gull, every kind of falcon, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the long-eared owl, 18 the swan, the pelican, the vulture, 19 the stork, every kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat. 20 Every winged swarming creature that goes on all fours is something loathsome to you.
21 “‘Of the winged swarming creatures that move on all fours, you may eat only those that have jointed legs above their feet for leaping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat: various kinds of migratory locusts, other edible locusts, crickets, and grasshoppers. 23 All other winged swarming creatures with four legs are something loathsome to you. 24 By these you would make yourselves unclean. Everyone touching their dead bodies will be unclean until the evening. 25 Anyone carrying any of their dead bodies should wash his garments; he will be unclean until the evening.
26 “‘Any animal that has a split hoof but does not have a cleft and does not chew its cud is unclean to you. Everyone touching them will be unclean. 27 Every living creature that walks on paws among the creatures that walk on all fours is unclean to you. Everyone touching their dead bodies will be unclean until the evening. 28 The one who carries their dead bodies should wash his garments, and he will be unclean until the evening. They are unclean to you.
29 “‘These are the swarming creatures of the earth that are unclean to you: the mole rat, the mouse, every kind of lizard, 30 the gecko, the large lizard, the newt, the sand lizard, and the chameleon. 31 These swarming creatures are unclean to you. Everyone touching their dead bodies will be unclean until the evening.
In Hebrew, other terms that resemble the same concept are also used, like here:
Lev. 19:19a ‘You should keep my statutes: You must not interbreed two sorts of your domestic animals. ...’
This different word is the Hebrew כִּלְאַיִם which is been translated "mixture of various classes" or similar, and it can also be applied to different seeds to be planted in the same field, different fabrics to be combined in the same item of clothing.
So evidently the animals were separated into classifications.
These passages are very interesting and show other classifications of animals that the Israelites needed to seriously consider:
Deut. 14:9 “Of everything that is living in the waters, you may eat these: Anything with fins and scales, you may eat. 10 But you must not eat anything that has no fins and scales. It is unclean for you.
11 “You may eat any clean bird. 12 But you must not eat these: the eagle, the osprey, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, every kind of glede, 14 every kind of raven, 15 the ostrich, the owl, the gull, every kind of falcon, 16 the little owl, the long-eared owl, the swan, 17 the pelican, the vulture, the cormorant, 18 the stork, every kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat. 19 Every winged swarming creature also is unclean for you. They should not be eaten. 20 Any clean flying creature you may eat.
Lev. 11:1 Then Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron: 2 “Tell the Israelites, ‘These are the living creatures of the earth that you may eat: 3 Every animal that has a split hoof and a cleft in its hooves and that chews the cud may be eaten.
4 “‘But you must not eat these animals that chew the cud or have a split hoof: the camel, which chews the cud but does not have a split hoof. It is unclean for you. 5 Also the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not have a split hoof. It is unclean for you. 6 Also the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have a split hoof. It is unclean for you. 7 Also the pig, because it has a split hoof and a cleft in the hoof but does not chew the cud. It is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat any of their flesh or touch their dead body. They are unclean for you.
9 “‘This is what you may eat of everything in the waters: Anything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, it you may eat. 10 But anything in the seas and in the rivers that has no fins and scales, among all the swarming creatures and of every other living creature that is in the waters, it is a loathsome thing for you. 11 Yes, they should be loathsome to you, and you must not eat any of their flesh and you must loathe their carcasses. 12 Everything in the waters that has no fins and scales is a loathsome thing to you.
13 “‘These are the flying creatures that you are to loathe; they should not be eaten, for they are loathsome: the eagle, the osprey, the black vulture, 14 the red kite and every kind of black kite, 15 every kind of raven, 16 the ostrich, the owl, the gull, every kind of falcon, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the long-eared owl, 18 the swan, the pelican, the vulture, 19 the stork, every kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat. 20 Every winged swarming creature that goes on all fours is something loathsome to you.
21 “‘Of the winged swarming creatures that move on all fours, you may eat only those that have jointed legs above their feet for leaping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat: various kinds of migratory locusts, other edible locusts, crickets, and grasshoppers. 23 All other winged swarming creatures with four legs are something loathsome to you. 24 By these you would make yourselves unclean. Everyone touching their dead bodies will be unclean until the evening. 25 Anyone carrying any of their dead bodies should wash his garments; he will be unclean until the evening.
26 “‘Any animal that has a split hoof but does not have a cleft and does not chew its cud is unclean to you. Everyone touching them will be unclean. 27 Every living creature that walks on paws among the creatures that walk on all fours is unclean to you. Everyone touching their dead bodies will be unclean until the evening. 28 The one who carries their dead bodies should wash his garments, and he will be unclean until the evening. They are unclean to you.
29 “‘These are the swarming creatures of the earth that are unclean to you: the mole rat, the mouse, every kind of lizard, 30 the gecko, the large lizard, the newt, the sand lizard, and the chameleon. 31 These swarming creatures are unclean to you. Everyone touching their dead bodies will be unclean until the evening.
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Perhaps you did not understand the Genesis 1 passage.
Genesis 1 says:- Earth brought forth cretaures of all kinds in according to God's will. (see the translation of NRSVUE above)
Evolutionary Biology says:- Evolution through natural selection (nature is earth only) gives rise to (ie brings forth) living things of billions of different species (a more scientific terminology for kinds) from a single common ancestor.... which itself emerged from earth through abiogenesis.
So quite literally evolutionary biology says that earth indeed brought forth all kinds of living things. The processes involved are abiogenesis and evolution...both of which was done by earth.
So, in fact, there is no conflict here. Zero.
Maybe you are the one who doesn't understand what the Hebrew word לְמִינוֹ means.
Instead of limiting yourself to a translation that seems to favor a certain way of understanding... What prevents you from reviewing other translations that help you have a greater understanding of what is implied by that word that is repeated so much in the passage, as I already pointed out before (post#99) ?
Gen. 1:11 Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” And it was so. 12 And the earth began to produce grass, seed-bearing plants and trees yielding fruit along with seed, according to their kinds. Then God saw that it was good.
(...) 20 Then God said: “Let the waters swarm with living creatures, and let flying creatures fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” 21And God created the great sea creatures and all living creatures that move and swarm in the waters according to their kinds and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 With that God blessed them, saying: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the waters of the sea, and let the flying creatures become many in the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24 Then God said: “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God went on to make the wild animals of the earth according to their kinds and the domestic animals according to their kinds and all the creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
It seems to me that on some whim you are bothered that the Bible specifies that animals were created and classified into different specific groups.
Instead of limiting yourself to a translation that seems to favor a certain way of understanding... What prevents you from reviewing other translations that help you have a greater understanding of what is implied by that word that is repeated so much in the passage, as I already pointed out before (post#99) ?
Gen. 1:11 Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” And it was so. 12 And the earth began to produce grass, seed-bearing plants and trees yielding fruit along with seed, according to their kinds. Then God saw that it was good.
(...) 20 Then God said: “Let the waters swarm with living creatures, and let flying creatures fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” 21And God created the great sea creatures and all living creatures that move and swarm in the waters according to their kinds and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 With that God blessed them, saying: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the waters of the sea, and let the flying creatures become many in the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24 Then God said: “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God went on to make the wild animals of the earth according to their kinds and the domestic animals according to their kinds and all the creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
It seems to me that on some whim you are bothered that the Bible specifies that animals were created and classified into different specific groups.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Genesis 1:
"And God said, 'Let the land produce living creature'."
Where does the Bible say that?
Are you sure that this is the best translation? As far as i know you are wrong here
Leviticus 19:
Ye shall keep My statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind; thou shalt not sow thy field with two kinds of seed; neither shall there come upon thee a garment of two kinds of stuff mingled together.
This verse is in no way connected with what you suggest.
On the other hand:
Isaiah 11
"The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord,as the waters cover the sea."
Yes , by a long procces called Evolution.
Ok , so?
You shall not do this , you shall not do that...
You can think of 'discipline' when you hear these words.
But that isn't what discipline is.
Discipline is the integration into a higher form of freedom.
Unless you think you are your hunger.
Galatians 5:14 disagrees with your analogy
"For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'."
So you see , it has nothing to do with what is discussed.
Read the rest of my posts.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
You know, there is a really simple solution to this instead of arguing over what dictionary definition fits your ideas best, realize it was written in language to be readable to people 2000 years ago, and Christians and Jews and Muslims who all respect the book have studied the word as written in earth and it's creatures and come up with a more modern translation that does not deny creation, but expands on the basic framework.Read the rest of my posts.
It also has the advantage of demonstrating you god's forethought unless you wish to insist he is just popping in kluges all the time.
What prevents me is simple. I believe what the most authoritative Biblical scholars say on the matter. And according to them the translation
" according to their kinds" is not part of the text. NRSVUE is widely considered the best scholarly translation of the Bible. So, sorry, I have no interest in your argument over those of linguistic and Bible experts on what the words mean.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
So you are doing the same,maybe?
I have given you Hebrew translation of another example , it did not fit with what you stated.We will see however if what you state next is true
There is no point in translations.You go straight to Hebrew and that's it.If you try to interprete Scriptute you have to study consistently to try to understand it as best as possible.
'Let the Earth cause
It does not say how it happend , it is only 'it happend'.
That is what Evolution is - 'it happend' b
Exactly , 'And the earth began to produce'.
Again - 'it happend'
Which says about the nature of creatures.
Can you live like a fish?
'According to their kinds'.
In the previous sentance it describes them only in 'move and swarm in the waters'.
So , enviourment.
Good way of classification , but that's it - it bothers with nothing more.
'God went on to make'
It does not say here how God made.
It just says he went
No that is exactly what you do , since the Bible never specifies how the Earth is in this form.It says only that there is earth and it is been created.It doesn say anything about physics , math , biology.
Scriptute does not bother with Science , have you not realized its use until now?
Scripture bothers with different matter.
Not with science.
As soon as you get that , the better for you.
I mean , at the end what is the use of it?
What makes The Bible to be Holy , the Inside or the Outside,or maybe both?
Your analogy is Apples and Oranges...
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
I just want to say that if one understands the original text , does not require scholar opinion.
Hebrew words are tricky , just like Arabic.
In your opinion what would be the best rendering to use here.
I do not know ancient Hebrew, and even people who know modern Hebrew may not know how the words were used thousands of years ago. It seems it is better to rely on people who have degress in ancient language for the translation of ancient texts.
Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Uh , all translations involve interpretation.
If you are interested in reading the Torah and understanding what it means, I believe you have to study Biblical Hebrew(the grammar, vocabulary, and sentence composition)
The most popular among academics is the New JPS (the old JPS uses somewhat outdated language).
The most popular among the English population of Orthodox Jews is the Stone Edition of the ArtScroll publication series.
Less popular is the Living Torah by Aryah Kaplan.
Also worthy of note is the Koren Jerusalem Bible.
Proir to the popularization of Artscoll, The Hertz edition was popular (though it used British English and it is generally odd to American readers).
Chabad uses it's own translation (called the Gutnick edition).
The Etz Hayim translation is popular in the Conservative movement.
I think Everett Fox translation would help you since he does a fantastic job of trying to preserve the poetic style of the text (while sacrificing the ease of which a reader might parse it).It is however the most awkward to read, but when comparing side to side with the Hebrew, he does his best to render without correction.
Well it is not like that , but it is normal to see this answer.I had the same problem when i started with ancient language.
For example , when one learns modern Greek,then understanding Koine is very easy.Language and meaning of words change through time.One just needs to look into History and ancient texts.
Well i thought the same , but i prefer to learn solo , since it has been demonstrated in recent years how people abuse interpretation.
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Jews and all scholars today have all the known earliest known ancient Hebrew text as it evolved from Phoenician /Canaanite text to
the earliest scrapes and references after ~600 BCE to the Dead Sea Scrolls to the later Masoretic manuscripts dated from the 7th to the 11th century when the first complete Torah the Leningrad Codex. The Dead Sea scrolls remain the standard for understanding ancient Hebrew.
List of Hebrew Bible manuscripts - Wikipedia
- Leningrad Codex (complete), copied from a Ben Asher manuscript, dated 1008 CE, written in Cairo, now deposited at Russian National Library in Saint Petersburg; this manuscript is the basis of the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia and other editions and is the oldest complete manuscript of the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew.
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The earliest "original text" that we have is the Dead Sea Scrolls. The only conclusion I can see that is realistic understanding is that the Hebrew priests or scribes that compiled the Pentateuch after ~600 BCE believed literally what they wrote in terms of their history, laws and rituals.
The evidence demonstrates that the Pentateuch compiled after ~600 BCE evolved from earlier Sumerian, Babylonian, Phoenician/Canaanite writing found in the earlier libraries, and were edited and redacted to include Hebrew traditions and beliefs.
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Dimi95
Χριστός ἀνέστη
Hendel and Joosten date the oldest parts of the Hebrew Bible (the Song of Deborah in Judges 5 and the Samson story of Judges 16 and 1 Samuel) to having been composed in the premonarchial early Iron Age (c.1200 BCE).
So God has a brain, eyes, five senses, four limbs, 20 digits, a mouth and digestive tract, a heart, liver, kidneys, male genitals, skin of intermediate color, and stands about. what, six foot tall, then?
Who were his parents?
The gods, they live at number 18. You haven’t met them? Usually there’s some lightning around the TV antenna if they’re at home.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I prefer clade.