I like that you brought out ' mainstream Christian denominations ' because quantity does Not equal quality.
Jesus forewarns us at Matt. 7:21-23 that MANY would come in his name but prove false.
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The Trinity - What on Earth is it?
- Thread starter rocala
- Start date
Jesus forewarns us at Matt. 7:21-23 that MANY would come in his name but prove false.
Niatero
*banned*
Has your question been answered? Did you find out what you wanted to know? I have some new ideas about it.
While that is true, being a smaller denomination such as the Jehovah Witnesses does not assure quality either. Some Christian groups are not well regarded within Christendom and while the justification may be unfair there may be good reason for the criticism. The point is, just because you are a relatively small group that feels persecuted or otherwise, does not mean you are any more correct than the Christen brethren you view as false.
Niatero
*banned*
I'm still in the process of revising and probably always will be. Here are some of my current thoughts:
- Trinity doctrines have mostly only ever been used to draw lines between Christianity and other religions, and between churches that want to be part of the mainstream and ones that don't. Multitudes of Christians in the mainstream churches don't actually believe all of it, and the churches aren't trying seriously to do anything about that.
- What the Bible says that looks like deifying Jesus is mostly only for Jews to be able to recognize and accept Him as their Lord. They were misused later by Christian leaders competing for control over the human and material resources of Christianity. That's how we got the Trinity doctrines.
- The personal interactions that we see in the gospels between God and Jesus are real, and not just God talking to Himself.
I'm thinking that the debating is mostly around people insisting on one side that Jesus is God, and on the other side that He is not. I'm also thinking that saying that He is God is mostly because sometimes people think that believing that is a requirement for salvation. Before this I thought I could agree with saying that Jesus is God, but that was only because that means something different to me from what it means to people clamorously promoting their Trinity beliefs.
Niatero
*banned*
This is an update on my thinking about the Trinty. It will mostly be repeating what I've already said, with some minor modifications.
- The ways that Jesus is glorified in the Bible stories was mostly for Jews to recognize Him as their Lord and the ruler of God's kingdom, and words and acts of devotion toward Him were part of that. His Jewish followers would have understood it in a way that did not make Jesus a god.
- The personal interactions between Jesus and God, and them talking to each other, that we see in the gospels, is real, and not just God talking to Himself.
- Later, some Christian philosophers started trying to explain how Christians could be worshipping Jesus and God without it being two gods. I've speculated about how that happened, but I haven't found any clear explanation. They tried to explain it using ideas from Greek philosophy, and different ones explained it different ways. Factions grew up around them and started feuding with each other. The emperors tried to stop that by getting some bishops to sign an agreement. That's how we got the creeds that say some things about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are called "the Trinity doctrine."
- The Trinity doctrine has mostly only ever been used to draw lines between Christianity and other religions, and between mainstream churches and other churches. Multitudes of members of mainstream churches don't believe everything it says, and the churches don't seem to be trying do anything about that. When people are promoting what they call "The Trinity" in online discussions, they mostly don't seem to know or care what the Trinity doctrine actually says. They mostly seem to think that the only part that matters is that Jesus is God, and everything else that they call "the Trinity" is different for different ones, and not the official teachings of any mainstream church about the Trinity.
- The reason for insisting that Jesus is God might be because sometimes people think that a person has to believe that to be saved.
- The ways that Jesus is glorified in the Bible stories was mostly for Jews to recognize Him as their Lord and the ruler of God's kingdom, and words and acts of devotion toward Him were part of that. His Jewish followers would have understood it in a way that did not make Jesus a god.
- The personal interactions between Jesus and God, and them talking to each other, that we see in the gospels, is real, and not just God talking to Himself.
- Later, some Christian philosophers started trying to explain how Christians could be worshipping Jesus and God without it being two gods. I've speculated about how that happened, but I haven't found any clear explanation. They tried to explain it using ideas from Greek philosophy, and different ones explained it different ways. Factions grew up around them and started feuding with each other. The emperors tried to stop that by getting some bishops to sign an agreement. That's how we got the creeds that say some things about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are called "the Trinity doctrine."
- The Trinity doctrine has mostly only ever been used to draw lines between Christianity and other religions, and between mainstream churches and other churches. Multitudes of members of mainstream churches don't believe everything it says, and the churches don't seem to be trying do anything about that. When people are promoting what they call "The Trinity" in online discussions, they mostly don't seem to know or care what the Trinity doctrine actually says. They mostly seem to think that the only part that matters is that Jesus is God, and everything else that they call "the Trinity" is different for different ones, and not the official teachings of any mainstream church about the Trinity.
- The reason for insisting that Jesus is God might be because sometimes people think that a person has to believe that to be saved.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
Dear @rocala,
I’d say that the position from which the question is posed -“The Trinity - What on Earth is it?”- allows mainly for illogical answers.
As a biblical notion, the Trinity is not a mundane/worldly/earthly concept, but a spiritual one. For it to make sense and for its wisdom to unfold -as with all biblical concepts- the Trinity too must be approached in a spiritual frame of mind.
I realise that this does not say anything unless one regularly, spiritually contemplates on biblical concepts in general already and that I cannot in a few sentences sum up the beauty of the Trinity to another, but one could begin somewhere like here:
In Scripture, “Man” lives and acts in “God”.
That notion can sometimes be the start of a beautiful, spiritual exploration.
Humbly,
Hermit
I’d say that the position from which the question is posed -“The Trinity - What on Earth is it?”- allows mainly for illogical answers.
As a biblical notion, the Trinity is not a mundane/worldly/earthly concept, but a spiritual one. For it to make sense and for its wisdom to unfold -as with all biblical concepts- the Trinity too must be approached in a spiritual frame of mind.
I realise that this does not say anything unless one regularly, spiritually contemplates on biblical concepts in general already and that I cannot in a few sentences sum up the beauty of the Trinity to another, but one could begin somewhere like here:
In Scripture, “Man” lives and acts in “God”.
That notion can sometimes be the start of a beautiful, spiritual exploration.
Humbly,
Hermit
Even the Pharisees had reasons for their criticism, and so did Jesus giving reasons for his many ' woes ' against them along with his reasons why in the 23rd chapter of Matthew.
To me that did Not make Jesus as wrong.
Jesus did forewarns us that MANY would be on the wrong or broad road - Matthew 7:13-14
Jesus also said MANY would prove false to him at Matthew 7:21-23
Plus, true or genuine followers would be ' hated ' as we can read at Matthew 10:22; 24:9; Luke 21:17; John 15:21
So, it is Not a popularity contest, Not quantity over quality.
- www.jw.org
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is false. The Trinity is in scripture.
I believe there is no such thing.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe anti-Trinitarianism is not quality.
Muffled
Jesus in me
My experience is that JW's when proven wrong , bug out because they simply can't admit the JW teaching is wrong.
Each should be open-minded to decide for one's self - www.jw.org
Mary did Not get pregnant by herself - 1st John 4:9-10 - God sent pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth from Heaven.
God transferred the heavenly life of His only-begotten heavenly Son to be born on earth as a sinless human.
During the era of the Old Testament because all the religions of the world were polytheistic, if not all most of them, if the Old Testament talked about the Trinity there was a danger Jews and others might believe it talks about three gods. Even though there were hints like when the three "men" visited Abraham he called those three Lord and not Lords. The Old Testament was used to teach the Jews and the rest of the world that God is one. In the New Testament it was fully revealed that God consists of thre persons. Like when Jesus was baptised there was the Holy Spirit as a pigeon and at the same time the voice of the Father from above. Every time someone tried to understand the mystery of the Trinity using his own brain, no mater how well educated and a knowledgeable scholar and theologist he was, a new heresy was born. That is how all the heresies were born. There are many works of the Fathers in Patrologia Graeca that talk about the Trinity but they are humble people who mention what was revealed to them from Above, not their own thoughts on the mater. In the Eastern Orthodox Church during rituals we say in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. One name - one God - three Persons. Not three names - three gods.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is not Biblical and is pure fantasy.
The verse says nothing about preexistence. Jesus existed here when previously He did not and that is a sending. It does not require pre-existence of anything other than the Spirit of God
Saint Spyridon the Wonderworker, Bishop of Tremithus
Saint Spyridon of Tremithus was born towards the end of the third century on the island of Cyprus. He was a shepherd, and had a wife and children. He used all his substance for the needs of his neighbors and the homeless, for which the Lord rewarded him with a gift of wonderworking. He healed those…
According to the witness of Church historians, Saint Spyridon participated in the sessions of the First Ecumenical Council in the year 325. At the Council, the saint entered into a dispute with a Greek philosopher who was defending the Arian heresy. The power of Saint Spyridon’s plain, direct speech showed everyone the importance of God’s wisdom before human wisdom: “Listen, philosopher, to what I tell you. There is one God Who created man from dust. He has ordered all things, both visible and invisible, by His Word and His Spirit. The Word is the Son of God, Who came down upon the earth on account of our sins. He was born of a Virgin, He lived among men, and suffered and died for our salvation, and then He arose from the dead, and He has resurrected the human race with Him. We believe that He is one in essence (consubstantial) with the Father, and equal to Him in authority and honor. We believe this without any sly rationalizations, for it is impossible to grasp this mystery by human reason.”
As a result of their discussion, the opponent of Christianity became the saint’s zealous defender and later received holy Baptism. After his conversation with Saint Spyridon, the philosopher turned to his companions and said, “Listen! Until now my rivals have presented their arguments, and I was able to refute their proofs with other proofs. But instead of proofs from reason, the words of this Elder are filled with some sort of special power, and no one can refute them, since it is impossible for man to oppose God. If any of you thinks as I do now, let him believe in Christ and join me in following this man, for God Himself speaks through his lips.”
At this Council, Saint Spyridon displayed the unity of the Holy Trinity in a remarkable way. He took a brick in his hand and squeezed it. At that instant fire shot up from it, water dripped on the ground, and only dust remained in the hands of the wonderworker. “There was only one brick,” Saint Spyridon said, “but it was composed of three elements. In the Holy Trinity there are three Persons, but only one God.”
Jesus is the one talked about at Revelation 3:14 B who is the beginning of the creation of God.
Created by God's spirit - Psalm 104:30
Beginning means: start
God started creating long before creating the Earth. - Genesis 1:26 - heavenly Jesus is part of the 'us' in verse 26.
Thus, created Jesus was the first of God's creation - Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22
Jesus gives credit to his God as being Creator at Rev. 4:11
I find the Tetragrammaton name YHWH only applies only to God, Not Jesus, Not God's spirit.
Of the two (2) LORD/Lord's found at Psalm 110 in the King James only the LORD in ALL Upper-Case letters stands for LORD God and Not Lord Jesus
Plus, as we know there is No name for God's spirit (Psalm 104:30)
I do find at Numbers 11:17,25 that God's spirit is a neuter " it " and Not a person
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