Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

icehorse said:

It is ignorant and simplistic to say that it is Israel that has been oppressing Palestinians, full stop.

Click to expand...

According to whom? You?

I think you have made it clear that the way you see the situation prioritizes Islam as some sort of ultimate threat and that basically everything else about the struggle is reducible to "Islamists" or their actions, whether merely perceived or real. Israel is the significantly more powerful party in the struggle. To say that its policies, from its position of distinct advantage, is oppressive to Palestinians seems to me both perfectly reasonable and realistic. The first step to solving a problem (such as oppression) is identifying and acknowledging it.

icehorse said:

I can agree that Palestinians have been oppressed, and that should concern us.

But it's crucial to see that the true oppressors here are the Islamists. But it's not fashionable to criticize Islamists. I imagine most of the people protesting against Israel would claim that to criticize Islamists is "racist". Which of course would be another ignorant claim.

Click to expand...

A rehash of the same one-dimensional points. I see no point in going in circles about this yet again. It's awash in resentment and talking points from ideologues and cultural supremacists like Sam Harris and Douglas Murray.

icehorse said:

Islamists have been oppressing Palestinians for decades. Where was the outrage against this during these decades? Crickets.

And honestly I don't think anti-semitism is the main driving force here. I'm sure it's an aspect, but I think the far greater driving force is this half-baked, overly simplistic, narrowly focused, historically ignorant "oppressed vs. oppressor" worldview.

Click to expand...

More of the same rehashed points, showing little to no familiarity with Palestinians' issues or what their actual concerns are.

If you really want to understand anything about this beyond the "Islamists are the problem" simplification, you can try to expand your exposure to viewpoints from people and sources other than the same ones you have repeatedly brought up or cited on this issue before.

Debater Slayer said:

A nuclear power backed by many powerful countries including three other nuclear powers—the US, the UK, and France—is not "oppressed." It is fully in charge of its affairs, has a strong and extensively armed and funded military, and has a lot of geopolitical, financial, and military support from its allies.

Whether a country faces some threats from far weaker actors, such as non-state militant groups, is different from being oppressed, which typically implies more powerful or at least peer actors overseeing and enacting oppression.

Click to expand...

Much of the force of the political Islamic world (Islamists), is backing Jihadi groups like Hamas. Islamists have systematically and relentlessly purged almost all non-Muslims from the ME. To call them weak actors is just inaccurate.

Again, I can agree that the Palestinians are weak and oppressed. And everyone who has just recently started protesting for Palestinians is either disingenuous, but probably simply ignorant of the bigger context. If they really cared about the Palestinians they would have been protesting since Hamas took over Gaza. If they just started protesting in the last six months they are - again - either ignorant or disingenuous. These days it's quite fashionable for the "woke" to jump on the latest bandwagon, and fight "the oppressors". No knowledge of history or the greater world is necessary, just follow whatever your woke leader tells you.

Ignatius A said:

So the message to Israel is, sit down shut up and dont complain. The Jews did that once before.

Click to expand...

No, the message is that policy reforms, negotiations, and a genuine push for a two-state solution would go a long way toward establishing peace in the region. Killing tens of thousands of civilians won't achieve anything other than prolonging the same problems that have existed for 75 years.

Revoltingest said:

Pay attention.
I said it was a sense I got from your
asking an apparent rhetorical question.

I use the quote function because it's proper
identify to whom & what I responded.
If you dislike being quoted, you're in
the wrong place.

Please, try to be interesting
instead of merely bickering.

Click to expand...

To you? No point

It's not a rhetorical question. If Israel has a right to defend itself how do you propose they do that and not kill civilians that hamas uses as shields. Be specific.

Indi t even care if you're interesting but try to actually answer the question. Specifically

Subduction Zone said:

I have seen protesters identify as Palestinians. I have not seen any identify as being Hamas. He may have conflated the two. Sadly I saw all of this coming when Hamas attacked Israel the way that they did. I knew that the Palestinian people would suffer more than Hamas. Overreaction by the Israelis only made a bad situation worse.

Click to expand...

This appears to have roots in sacred texts & cultures
of the religions & people involved. Exterminating
the enemy appears to be a common them. So when
a group feels wronged, vengeance has no limit.
This explains Christians & Jews justifying genocide.

Ignatius A said:

To you? No point

It's not a rhetorical question. If Israel has a right to defend itself how do you propose they do that and not kill civilians that hamas uses as shields. Be specific.

Indi t even care if you're interesting but try to actually answer the question. Specifically

Click to expand...

After the initial strike that took away the immediate threat they should have concentrated on investigation. Instead they have been merely retaliating and giving fodder to those claiming that Israel is practicing genocide.

Ignatius A said:

To you? No point

Click to expand...

I wonder...
If you openly state intention to bicker &
be uninteresting, why post to me at all?

Debater Slayer said:

If you really want to understand anything about this beyond the "Islamists are the problem" simplification, you can try to expand your exposure to viewpoints from people and sources other than the same ones you have repeatedly brought up or cited on this issue before.

Click to expand...

If you want to understand anything about this beyond the "Israel is the problem" simplification, expand your exposure.

Ask yourself why Egypt's border with Gaza has been, and continues to be, tighter than Israel's?

Debater Slayer said:

A rehash of the same one-dimensional points. I see no point in going in circles about this yet again. It's awash in resentment and talking points from ideologues and cultural supremacists like Sam Harris and Douglas Murray.

Click to expand...

When any poster demonstrates that they can't separate the idea from the messenger, I know that their argument is weak.

Do you support Islamists?

Subduction Zone said:

I have seen protesters identify as Palestinians. I have not seen any identify as being Hamas. He may have conflated the two. Sadly I saw all of this coming when Hamas attacked Israel the way that they did. I knew that the Palestinian people would suffer more than Hamas. Overreaction by the Israelis only made a bad situation worse.

Click to expand...

So was it purely cynical of Hamas to attack - when they might have known what would happen?

Debater Slayer said:

No, the message is that policy reforms, negotiations, and a genuine push for a two-state solution would go a long way toward establishing peace in the region. Killing tens of thousands of civilians won't achieve anything other than prolonging the same problems that have existed for 75 years.

Click to expand...

I agree. Now point me toward a hamas leader who has supported a two state solution. What's that chant again? Oh yeah "Palestine will be free from the river to the sea". Sounds like a fine foundation for a two state solution.

Revoltingest said:

I wonder...
If you openly state intention to bicker &
be uninteresting, why post to me at all?

Click to expand...

If I'm bickering and uninteresting, then telling me to pay attention is rude and uninteresting. This response of yours was unnecessary. You can just ignore me.

Mock Turtle said:

So was it purely cynical of Hamas to attack - when they might have known what would happen?

Click to expand...

I am not sure if I would use the phrase "cynical". They were probably misguided. They should have known better. They probably look at it as a sacrifice for a "greater good".

Ignatius A said:

If I'm bickering and uninteresting...

Click to expand...

I'll endeavor to bother you less often.

Revoltingest said:

I'll endeavor to bother you less often.

Click to expand...

That's entirely up to you.

Mock Turtle said:

So was it purely cynical of Hamas to attack - when they might have known what would happen?

Click to expand...

We don't know Hamas's goals,
or what results were envisioned.

Subduction Zone said:

I am not sure if I would use the phrase "cynical". They were probably misguided. They should have known better. They probably look at it as a sacrifice for a "greater good".

Click to expand...

Perhaps, and they might not have expected the retaliation to have been so fierce - and especially sad for the civilian population.

Revoltingest said:

We don't know Hamas's goals,
or what results were envisioned.

Click to expand...

Was it really doubted what Israel might do after such an attack and did Hamas rely on public opinion restraining Israel? Bad gamble in my view if they did do this.

Mock Turtle said:

Perhaps, and they might not have expected the retaliation to have been so fierce - and especially sad for the civilian population.

Click to expand...

Yes it appears they underestimated the ferocity and lack of moral principles of their enemy, not that they had that much of such themselves

Mock Turtle said:

Perhaps, and they might not have expected the retaliation to have been so fierce - and especially sad for the civilian population.

Click to expand...

It's also possible that Hamas expected deadly over-reaction.
This would serve the purpose of exposing Israel for what it's
long been, but tolerated, ie, a deadly brutal regime.
If that were the goal, Hamas has indeed succeeded in tarnishing
Israel's image, & possibly weakening US military & financial
largess. But at high cost to the civilian population.

Lyndon said:

Yes it appears they underestimated the ferocity and lack of moral principles of their enemy, not that they had that much of such themselves

Click to expand...

When an enemy hides within the civilian population it's not so easy to get at them, hence why we have seen so many civilian casualties - even if such does seem far too excessive. I fail to see what Hamas were hoping to achieve, apart from what has resulted.