Do those who prefer falsehood over truth deserve hell forever?

Link · Mar 30, 2024

Salam

I think in general the answer without God it would be no. But when the truth is the absolute beauty and being worthy of worship and love if you deny the truth emanating from him and towards him, it's hating goodness at it's core.

No one can see their evil almost, most souls deceive themselves. However to be truthful and not lie to oneself and deceive oneself is needed to reach truth.

Truth is worthy to be sought after because it's goodness and beauty.

The light of God in the spirit from God's Authority, is truth from God and linked to God that we have to love those entrusted with that spirit and light from God. Desiring them and wanting them is desiring God.

Wanting other than God when God is available as a reward is evil.

Accepting God including his wrath side and being at peace with it is necessary.

danieldemol · Mar 30, 2024

Its a moot point, hell is either not real or not demonstrably real so those who prefer truth will be inclined to reject the concept as believed by the OP in my view

sun rise · Mar 30, 2024

Sura An-Nur has this "Allāh guides to His light whom He wills." So isn't it the case that if someone is not guided to the light it's due to Allah's will? If if that is so, where does deserving hell come in?

Link · Mar 31, 2024

sun rise said:
Sura An-Nur has this "Allāh guides to His light whom He wills." So isn't it the case that if someone is not guided to the light it's due to Allah's will? If if that is so, where does deserving hell come in?

Salam

God's will though is based on our actions. If we turn to God often, we will be guided per Quran:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُضِلُّ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ أَنَابَ | The disbelievers say, ‘Why has not some sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say, ‘Indeed Allah leads astray whomever He wishes, and guides to Himself/it those who turn penitently [to Him] | Ar-Ra'd : 27

If we desire the next world, we will be guided as well:

مَنْ كَانَ يُرِيدُ حَرْثَ الْآخِرَةِ نَزِدْ لَهُ فِي حَرْثِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ كَانَ يُرِيدُ حَرْثَ الدُّنْيَا نُؤْتِهِ مِنْهَا وَمَا لَهُ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنْ نَصِيبٍ | Whoever desires the tillage of the Hereafter, We will enhance for him his tillage, and whoever desires the tillage of the world, We will give it to him, but he will have no share in the Hereafter. | Ash-Shura : 20

And source of blindness is sins:

كَلَّا ۖ بَلْ ۜ رَانَ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ مَا كَانُوا يَكْسِبُونَ | No, that is not the case! Rather, their hearts have been sullied by what they have been earning. | Al-Mutaffifin : 14

Not just sins, but when we lack enough good deeds to repel the evil deeds:

وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ طَرَفَيِ النَّهَارِ وَزُلَفًا مِنَ اللَّيْلِ ۚ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَاتِ يُذْهِبْنَ السَّيِّئَاتِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ ذِكْرَىٰ لِلذَّاكِرِينَ | Maintain the prayer at the two ends of the day, and during the early hours of the night. Indeed good deeds ward off/efface evil deeds. That is an admonition for the mindful. | Hud : 114

And the ball always to change is in our own court:

لَهُ مُعَقِّبَاتٌ مِنْ بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِ يَحْفَظُونَهُ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللَّهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُغَيِّرُ مَا بِقَوْمٍ حَتَّىٰ يُغَيِّرُوا مَا بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ ۗ وَإِذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِقَوْمٍ سُوءًا فَلَا مَرَدَّ لَهُ ۚ وَمَا لَهُمْ مِنْ دُونِهِ مِنْ وَالٍ | He has guardians, to his front and his rear, who guard him by Allah’s command. Indeed Allah does not change a people’s lot, unless they change what is in their souls. And when Allah wishes to visit ill on a people, there is nothing that can avert it, and they have no protector from other than Him| Ar-Ra'd : 11

If we love God's chosen ones (42:23)(25:57) we will be guided as well.

Despite the fact that warnings won't avail people who are set on evil, God still teaches us to admonish them to establish a proof and with hope they might be awakened and fear God:

وَإِذْ قَالَتْ أُمَّةٌ مِنْهُمْ لِمَ تَعِظُونَ قَوْمًا ۙ اللَّهُ مُهْلِكُهُمْ أَوْ مُعَذِّبُهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۖ قَالُوا مَعْذِرَةً إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ | When a group of them said, ‘Why do you advise a people whom Allah will destroy, or punish with a severe punishment?’ They said, ‘As an excuse before your Lord, and [with the hope] that they may be guarding/fearful (of God)’ | Al-A'raaf : 164

There's always a chance hence a lost soul is awakened.

WonderingWorrier · Apr 2, 2024

Link said:
Accepting God including his wrath side and being at peace with it is necessary.

In what way do you mean.
Like blindly accepting a monster for reward?
Or understanding the monster and seeing its beauty?

But how can someone actually believe the messenger if they can't even hear the message?

Because if someone can actually hear the message then they must also be able to identify any other messengers, having a clear way to sort between true prophets and false prophets.

As the Quran says:

"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful". Muhammad 4:152

So if someone can't actually hear what they are saying, then they can't believe what is being said. They would be unbelievers.

Only believers could identify other messengers. Because they believe what is being said.

Nakosis · Apr 2, 2024

Link said:
Salam

I think in general the answer without God it would be no. But when the truth is the absolute beauty and being worthy of worship and love if you deny the truth emanating from him and towards him, it's hating goodness at it's core.

No one can see their evil almost, most souls deceive themselves. However to be truthful and not lie to oneself and deceive oneself is needed to reach truth.

Truth is worthy to be sought after because it's goodness and beauty.

The light of God in the spirit from God's Authority, is truth from God and linked to God that we have to love those entrusted with that spirit and light from God. Desiring them and wanting them is desiring God.

Wanting other than God when God is available as a reward is evil.

Accepting God including his wrath side and being at peace with it is necessary.

No one perfers falsehood. No one purposely seeks to be mislead. This itself is a falsehood created by religious leaders to explain their own shortcomings.

It asks you to stop looking yourself for the truth yourself and instead rely on words spoken by others.

One should run far away from any religion which tells you that you to accept its truth in lieu of the reality that you experience for yourself everyday.

Link · Apr 14, 2024

Nakosis said:
No one perfers falsehood. No one purposely seeks to be mislead. This itself is a falsehood created by religious leaders to explain their own shortcomings.

It asks you to stop looking yourself for the truth yourself and instead rely on words spoken by others.

One should run far away from any religion which tells you that you to accept its truth in lieu of the reality that you experience for yourself everyday.

No one prefers falsehood in pure form. But some of truth and falsehood is mixed.

If truth was presented in pure form, all would follow it. If falsehood in pure form, all would avoid it.

However, with effort, mental clarity takes place. The first step of justice is to oppose one's caprice of what they want truth to be but rather become objective to want to know the truth and than adapt to it, rather then making up truth to their bias caprice.

At the end truth + falsehood = falsehood. It's required for humans to want mental clarity for moral guidance. Otherwise, we betray our nature as moral agents.

Nakosis · Apr 14, 2024

Link said:
No one prefers falsehood in pure form. But some of truth and falsehood is mixed.

If truth was presented in pure form, all would follow it. If falsehood in pure form, all would avoid it.

However, with effort, mental clarity takes place. The first step of justice is to oppose one's caprice of what they want truth to be but rather become objective to want to know the truth and than adapt to it, rather then making up truth to their bias caprice.

At the end truth + falsehood = falsehood. It's required for humans to want mental clarity for moral guidance. Otherwise, we betray our nature as moral agents.

What provides you mental clarity?

Link · Apr 14, 2024

Nakosis said:
What provides you mental clarity?

Most of it is inward light and connection to light. I been fighting dark magic for so long because I falsely thought it caused my mental illness. While my mental illness is only cured through medications I gained through such fighting and prayers gains in unseen that I can detect black magic on verses of Quran and can tell where something is off, and can remove their locks.

Removing their locks, has lead me to see that most of humanity is under a dark spell. Most of this is to blind people to the family of Mohammad (s) in Quran but it includes other things like muta and slavery. Slavery is not allowed by God in any time ever. Muta is in fact repeated but not with that word.

The 4th Imam (a) says "the guided are only guided by the light your face".

The Quran is words, they can cure, but not without taking refuge into God. God is unseen and so refuge in God and his Messengers (a), is a way to take refuge in God. There is no Messenger in the open, yet there is a guide in each time.

God says he guides by the spirit of his command and made it a light which he guides who he wishes from his servants.

As for more than that and experiences - I won't comment too much on them.

We live in dark times, where even kids will mock the idea of magic. Dark times indeed.

RestlessSoul · Apr 14, 2024

Nakosis said:
No one perfers falsehood. No one purposely seeks to be mislead. This itself is a falsehood created by religious leaders to explain their own shortcomings.

It asks you to stop looking yourself for the truth yourself and instead rely on words spoken by others.

One should run far away from any religion which tells you that you to accept its truth in lieu of the reality that you experience for yourself everyday.

On the contrary, I think most of us humans consciously or unconsciously mislead ourselves, much of the time.

We have little chance of ever apprehending truth, if we are incapable of being honest with ourselves. And yet it seems we all lie to ourselves, because to do so is often easier than facing uncomfortable truths.

Link · Apr 14, 2024

RestlessSoul said:
On the contrary, I think most of us humans consciously or unconsciously mislead ourselves, much of the time.

We have little chance of ever apprehending truth, if we are incapable of being honest with ourselves. And yet it seems we all lie to ourselves, because to do so is often easier than facing uncomfortable truths.

Sometimes to see the proper mirror and light, we have to face how ugly our evil deeds have made us to be. Yet good deeds repel evil deeds and change their effects and remove their shackles.

God rewards 10 for every good deed, and recompenses 1 for every evil. So if a person does as much good deeds as bad, he will improve and eventually move away from sins that he commits.

However, to deny the ugliness of sins and make up the mirror of who we become by arbitrary standards of our caprice simply to love ourselves is suicide for the soul. It deadens the heart, kills the awakening process, hardens the soul and heart to being cold and almost beyond repair.

Light is needed to see light.

Glaurung · Apr 16, 2024

Link said:
I think in general the answer without God it would be no. But when the truth is the absolute beauty and being worthy of worship and love if you deny the truth emanating from him and towards him, it's hating goodness at it's core.

To reject God is to cut yourself off from goodness itself since God is the supreme good. However, I question if it is possible to definitively reject God (at least in this life) because we all suffer from ignorance. You may insist that our failure to embrace Islam is a rejection of the truth but a Christian would say the same thing about you and your failure to embrace Christianity. You are in no better position than anyone else here. The truth may not be what you believe it to be.

PureX · Apr 16, 2024

No one deserves hell forever.

muhammad_isa · Apr 16, 2024

PureX said:
No one deserves hell forever.

I don't see it as having a 'black or white' answer.

A couple of points .. what if 'forever' is viewed as 'an exceedingly long time' ?
..and there is also the question, "will anybody be in a hell of their own making?", and
what would it take to escape from it?

TagliatelliMonster · Apr 16, 2024

Link said:
Salam

I think in general the answer without God it would be no. But when the truth is the absolute beauty and being worthy of worship and love if you deny the truth emanating from him and towards him, it's hating goodness at it's core.

No one can see their evil almost, most souls deceive themselves. However to be truthful and not lie to oneself and deceive oneself is needed to reach truth.

Truth is worthy to be sought after because it's goodness and beauty.

The light of God in the spirit from God's Authority, is truth from God and linked to God that we have to love those entrusted with that spirit and light from God. Desiring them and wanting them is desiring God.

Wanting other than God when God is available as a reward is evil.

Accepting God including his wrath side and being at peace with it is necessary.

1. the answer is always "no"

2. truth can be ugly also

TagliatelliMonster · Apr 16, 2024

muhammad_isa said:
I don't see it as having a 'black or white' answer.

I do. It's a matter of proportion.
No finite crime deserves eternal punishment.

muhammad_isa said:
A couple of points .. what if 'forever' is viewed as 'an exceedingly long time' ?

Then it's not "forever" :shrug:

PureX · Apr 16, 2024

muhammad_isa said:
I don't see it as having a 'black or white' answer.

You asked it as a black and white question.

muhammad_isa said:
A couple of points .. what if 'forever' is viewed as 'an exceedingly long time' ?

Then logically no one 'deserves' that.

muhammad_isa said:
..and there is also the question, "will anybody be in a hell of their own making?"

If they were, would they even recognize it, ... given who they would have to become to get there?

muhammad_isa said:
, and
what would it take to escape from it?

A change of spirit. Which might support the idea of reincarnation.

Nakosis · Apr 16, 2024

Link said:
Most of it is inward light and connection to light. I been fighting dark magic for so long because I falsely thought it caused my mental illness. While my mental illness is only cured through medications I gained through such fighting and prayers gains in unseen that I can detect black magic on verses of Quran and can tell where something is off, and can remove their locks.

Removing their locks, has lead me to see that most of humanity is under a dark spell. Most of this is to blind people to the family of Mohammad (s) in Quran but it includes other things like muta and slavery. Slavery is not allowed by God in any time ever. Muta is in fact repeated but not with that word.

The 4th Imam (a) says "the guided are only guided by the light your face".

The Quran is words, they can cure, but not without taking refuge into God. God is unseen and so refuge in God and his Messengers (a), is a way to take refuge in God. There is no Messenger in the open, yet there is a guide in each time.

God says he guides by the spirit of his command and made it a light which he guides who he wishes from his servants.

As for more than that and experiences - I won't comment too much on them.

We live in dark times, where even kids will mock the idea of magic. Dark times indeed.

I suppose I would call "dark magic" advertising, social media and psychological warfare.
To me, I see us being easily misled by words/images. This is IMO, just a matter of how our mind works. Most people seem to fall more easily under its influence without realizing it. Even though partially aware of it, they don't see its influence on their own thinking. Because of this however, you can't really convince them otherwise.

That is what I see enlightenment as. Firstly, the ability to think for your self as well as being aware of how all of these external elements can influence your thinking.

McBell · Apr 16, 2024

Link said:
Salam

I think in general the answer without God it would be no. But when the truth is the absolute beauty and being worthy of worship and love if you deny the truth emanating from him and towards him, it's hating goodness at it's core.

No one can see their evil almost, most souls deceive themselves. However to be truthful and not lie to oneself and deceive oneself is needed to reach truth.

Truth is worthy to be sought after because it's goodness and beauty.

The light of God in the spirit from God's Authority, is truth from God and linked to God that we have to love those entrusted with that spirit and light from God. Desiring them and wanting them is desiring God.

Wanting other than God when God is available as a reward is evil.

Accepting God including his wrath side and being at peace with it is necessary.