"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

3rdAngel said:

The temple existed after the death of Jesus up until 70AD.

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What does this have to do with whether Jewish believers should follow Jewish Law or not?

3rdAngel said:

So your post is not relevant, not truthful and does not support your teachings or interpretation of them.

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I dunno, he seems to be making sense to me.

3rdAngel said:

It seems you have not done enough study on this matter.

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Actually Metis is one of the very few Catholics in the forum who has impressed me with his knowledge of Judaism. I think you could learn a thing or two from him.

You do not seem to be following your own conversation. Here lets help you with that.

metis said: It should be obvious. It shows that Jewish Christians still had to follow Jewish Law, all 613 Commandments, but Gentile Christians didn't and don't.

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Responded with..

3rdAngel said:

Really where does it say that?

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You responded with...

metis said:

To put it simply: Jews are under the Mosaic Law until they die but Gentiles aren't.

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Responded to here

3rdAngel said:

So the Jew according to you have to continue in Animal sacrifices and sin offerings and not accept Christ? Please think what you are saying through before posting what you are saying here is not biblical and the scriptures you posted do not support what you are saying.

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You said...

metis said: The Temple doesn't exist, and you simply do not understand both Jewish Law as being binding on a Jew and also the difference that existed between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. Let me recommend you do some studying on these matters.

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Responded with...

3rdAngel said:

The temple existed after the death of Jesus up until 70AD. So your post is not relevant, not truthful and does not support your teachings or interpretation of them. It seems you have not done enough study on this matter.

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Your response again...

metis said:

That has nothing to do with the issue of halacha {Jewish Law] now!!!

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Yep we are talking about the bible and your claims that the Jewish Christians still have to do animal sacrifices and sin offerings and obey all the 613 laws of the old covenant. My statement to you earlier was that the Temple did not cease until 70AD after the death of Christ. Do you know what the animal sacrifices of the old covenant pointed to in the new covenant scriptures? It seems you do not.

metis said:

LOL! Well maybe ask @IndigoChild5559 or @RabbiO about whether I maybe have studied Jewish teachings.

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Why would I ask those who reject Gods Messiah and are still awaiting Gods promised Messiah and do not believe and obey what Gods Word says? So you have kind of dug a bit of a hole for yourself now and need some help to get you out my thinks.

IndigoChild5559 said:

What does this have to do with whether Jewish believers should follow Jewish Law or not?

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Has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I dunno, he seems to be making sense to me.

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Yep for you because you have rejected Gods Messiah and still waiting for yours right? We were talking about Christian Jews follow the conversation.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Actually Metis is one of the very few Catholics in the forum who has impressed me with his knowledge of Judaism. I think you could learn a thing or two from him.

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It has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

3rdAngel said:

Yep we are talking about the bible and your claims that the Jews Christians still have to do animal sacrifices and sin offerings and obey all the 613 laws of the old covenant.

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What he is saying is that the 613 commandments are still binding on all Jews, whether they have converted to Christianity or not. But you can only keep those commandments which are possible to keep. It is unlawful to offer sacrifice anywhere but at the temple, thus, since there is no temple, it is currently unlawful to offer sacrifice.

IndigoChild5559 said:

What he is saying is that the 613 commandments are still binding on all Jews, whether they have converted to Christianity or not. But you can only keep those commandments which are possible to keep. It is unlawful to offer sacrifice anywhere but at the temple, thus, since there is no temple, it is currently unlawful to offer sacrifice.

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Not according to the bible. You missed the point. Jewish and Gentile Christians are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings. That is a denial of Gods promised Messiah in Christ to who these shadow laws pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death. No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant. These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers who are all now one in Christ. Gods promised Messiah.

3rdAngel said:

Not according to the bible. You missed the point. Jewish and Gentile Christians are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings. That is a denial of Gods promised Messiah in Christ to who these shadow laws pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death. No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant. These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers who are all now one in Christ. Gods promised Messiah.

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You seriously do not know what you're talking about as you are virtually ignoring what Torah mandates. Since the Temple at this time doesn't exist, animal/grain sacrifices are not in order.

metis said:

You seriously do not know what you're talking about as you are virtually ignoring what Torah mandates. Since the Temple at this time doesn't exist, animal/grain sacrifices are not in order.

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Not really, it was you not me that thinks Jewish Christians are still required to make animal sacrifices for there sins not me. The bible does not teach what you are teaching. Be honest.

3rdAngel said:

Not according to the bible. You missed the point. Jewish and Gentile Christians are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings. That is a denial of Gods promised Messiah in Christ to who these shadow laws pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death. No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant. These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers who are all now one in Christ. Gods promised Messiah.

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You are missing the point. First of all, the commandment for Jews to offer sacrifice at the temple is still valid. The problem is, that it is unlawful to offer sacrifice anywhere other than the temple, so since there is no temple at this time, Jews are NOT to offer sacrifice. If and when the temple is rebuilt, then sacrifices will resume.

IndigoChild5559 said:

You are missing the point. First of all, the commandment for Jews to offer sacrifice at the temple is still valid. The problem is, that it is unlawful to offer sacrifice anywhere other than the temple, so since there is no temple at this time, Jews are NOT to offer sacrifice. If and when the temple is rebuilt, then sacrifices will resume.

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I did not miss anything here. According to the scriptures, Christian Jewish and Gentile believers are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings as followers and believers of Gods Messiah in Jesus. That would be a denial of Gods promised Messiah to who these shadow laws of the old covenant all pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death (no more animal sacrifices). No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant as Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all was sacrificed in the lamb of God (John 1:29). These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers (see Hebrews 7:1-27; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) who are all now one in Christ.

3rdAngel said:

I did not miss anything here. According to the scriptures, Christian Jewish and Gentile believers are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings as followers and believers of Gods Messiah in Jesus.

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I can point to Acts 21 as documenting that Jewish Christians very much DID continue to offer sacrifices. Can you give me any verse that says Jewish believers are NOT to?

IndigoChild5559 said:

I can point to Acts 21 as documenting that Jewish Christians very much DID continue to offer sacrifices. Can you give me any verse that says Jewish believers are NOT to?

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Yes more than one read Hebrews 7:1-27; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22; John 1:29. Acts 21 says no where that Jewish Christian believers have to offer animal sacrifices for atonement of sin. You do not understand scripture. Again, according to the scriptures, Christian Jewish and Gentile believers are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings as followers and believers of Gods Messiah in Jesus. That would be a denial of Gods promised Messiah to who these shadow laws of the old covenant all pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death (no more animal sacrifices). No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant as Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all was sacrificed in the lamb of God (John 1:29). These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers (see Hebrews 7:1-27; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) who are all now one in Christ.

3rdAngel said:

Yes more than one read Hebrews 7:1-27; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22; John 1:29. Acts 21 says no where that Jewish Christian believers have to offer animal sacrifices for atonement of sin. You do not understand scripture. Again, according to the scriptures, Christian Jewish and Gentile believers are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings as followers and believers of Gods Messiah in Jesus. That would be a denial of Gods promised Messiah to who these shadow laws of the old covenant all pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death (no more animal sacrifices). No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant as Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all was sacrificed in the lamb of God (John 1:29). These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers (see Hebrews 7:1-27; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) who are all now one in Christ.

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back up. When you cite verses, you need to paste them. It is not my job to go look them up. Also, please break up your paragraphs. No one wants to read the sort of MEGA paragraph you have there, due.

I never said that it explicitely commanded Jewish believers to continue making sacrifices. I simply stated that acts 21 documents that this was the belief of the Jewish church in Jerusalem, including the continuing in sacrifices.

It is up to you therefore to show somewhere that this practice is explicitly condemned. Again, don't just give references. Quote the verse(s).

IndigoChild5559 said:

back up. When you cite verses, you need to paste them. It is not my job to go look them up. Also, please break up your paragraphs. No one wants to read the sort of MEGA paragraph you have there, due.

I never said that it explicitely commanded Jewish believers to continue making sacrifices. I simply stated that acts 21 documents that this was the belief of the Jewish church in Jerusalem, including the continuing in sacrifices.

It is up to you therefore to show somewhere that this practice is explicitly condemned. Again, don't just give references. Quote the verse(s).

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Yea kinda does not work that way with Christianity. Gods Messiah in Christ (Yeshua) is who all the old covenant laws of atonement pointed to and the earthly temple was only a ever copy of the one in heaven. Making animal sacrifices for the atonement of sin was never the belief of new covenant Christians in Acts 21.

3rdAngel said:

Yea kinda does not work that way with Christianity. Gods Messiah in Christ (Yeshua) is who all the old covenant laws of atonement pointed to and the earthly temple was only a ever copy of the one in heaven. Making animal sacrifices for the atonement of sin was never the belief of new covenant Christians in Acts 21.

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Excuse me? Acts 21:20 states "You see how many thousands of believers there are, and they are all zealous for Torah." That includes the sacrifices. It includes shabbat. It includes kosher laws. It includes the holy days. It includes every aspect of Jewish law.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Excuse me? Acts 21:20 states "You see how many thousands of believers there are, and they are all zealous for Torah." That includes the sacrifices. It includes shabbat. It includes kosher laws. It includes the holy days. It includes every aspect of Jewish law.

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Sorry to disappoint you friend but there is nothing in Acts 21:20 that states Jewish Christians were commanded to continue offering animal sacrifices to atone for sin. That claim is simply not biblical and an anti-Christian belief. I posted you scriptures earlier showing what Jewish Christian believers understood about the old covenant laws of atonement for sin and animal sacrifices and how they were "shadow laws" pointing to Gods Messiah in Jesus Christ (Yeshua) from the book of Hebrews (e.g. Hebrews 7:1-27; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) There is too much scripture as to what Jewish Christians believe go read the references I posted. Acts 21:20-21 is not telling Jewish Christian believers to continue offering animal sacrifices for atonement of sin anywhere. You are making this up.

Again, according to the scriptures, Jewish Christian and Gentile believers are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings as followers and believers of Gods Messiah in Jesus. That would be a denial of Gods promised Messiah to who these shadow laws of the old covenant all pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death (no more animal sacrifices). No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant as Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all was sacrificed in the lamb of God (John 1:29). These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers who are all now one in Christ.

Here is the scripture with context Acts 21:20-21 "20, And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law. 21, And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. Sorry friend, firstly the context of these scriptures is about circumcision not practicing the laws for atonement for sin through animal sacrifices and sin offerings. A purification ritual in Acts 21 is not the same things as offerings for sin atonement in the Torah.

For Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ according to the new covenant scriptures posted the first time round...

Christ’s sacrifice was offered only once (9:6-7, 11-12, 25-26, 28; 10:1, 10-12, etc.). The older sacrifices had to be repeated over and again, year after year. This would leave the thinking worshiper with doubts as to their real value (10:2-4), with little reason to assume that even the repeated offering of an animal could satisfy God or remove human guilt? The happy announcement of the gospel is that the sacrifice of Christ was of such value that it needed to be offered only once for all. Christ’s saving work is a finished work (cf. John 19:30), accomplished “once for all.”

Christ’s sacrifice effected forgiveness (9:9-10, 12; 10:1, 4, 11, 18). Sin was the problem addressed in sacrifice – it demanded removal. The repetition of the older sacrifices testified to their inability to deal with sin with finality. They were inadequate. The sacrifice was not of sufficient value. But our Lord offered himself (9:12, 13, 26), a sacrifice of supreme value (cf. Heb. 1-2), effectual in removing sin. Again, what the older sacrifices only anticipated the sacrifice of Christ actually accomplished, and it is therefore able to “purge the conscience” (9:14) of guilt.

Christ’s sacrifice was accepted in heaven, the true temple (8:2, 5; 9:1, 9, 11-12, 23, 24; 10:1). That is to say, it was not prospective of anything. It did not symbolize or anticipate the accomplishing of atonement. Accepted by God himself, in the true temple, forgiveness is assured.

Christ’s sacrifice gained access to God (Heb. 9:7-8; 10:19-22). The old sacrificial system was designed to demonstrate that the way to God is not just open to anyone on any terms (v. 8). There must be a qualified priest and an acceptable sacrifice offered in an acceptable way. Even so, the people at large must stay back – only the high priest had access into the holy of holies and that just once a year and by a prescribed ceremony of sacrifice. We must not presume. It is a fearful thing to approach the holy God. But by the sacrifice of Christ the way now is open. All who come by him, on the ground of his sacrificial work, are accepted (cf. Matt. 27:51; John 2:19-21).

At the climax of this discussion in Hebrews the writer draws several applications, marked by the word “therefore”: Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works (Heb. 10:19-24).

That is, if the sacrifice of Christ, offered once for all, was accepted in heaven itself, effecting forgiveness and gaining access to God, then let us be bold, confident in approaching God assured of our acceptance. Let us be confident, assured of our acceptance there with unwavering faith. Let us persevere through any difficulty with confidence of our final salvation, and let us encourage one another to the same. (Source: Zaspel). Simply now what does this mean? It means no more animal sacrifices for sin offerings which are all now fulfilled in Gods Messiah in Jesus Christ to who they all pointed to and His Work and ministration in the new covenant and the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly Sanctuary was only ever a copy.

Sorry you are completely wrong here my friend.

3rdAngel said:

Sorry to disappoint you friend but there is nothing in Acts 21:20

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You see hw many thousands believe and they are all zealous for Torah.

IndigoChild5559 said:

You see hw many thousands believe and they are all zealous for Torah.

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Which does not say Jewish Christian believers must seek Gods forgives of sins through animal sacrifices and sin offerings from a Levite Priest in an earthly Temple. Again the context of Acts 21:20-21 shows that the subject matter was for circumcision from the law of Moses and the laws of purification not animal sacrifices for sin atonement. A detailed scripture response in disagreement with you understanding of the bible that Jewish Christian believers are required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings was provided for you in post # 3455 linked that you simply ignored. Again, according to the scriptures in the new testament as shown in the linked post that you are unwilling to respond to, Jewish Christian believers and Gentile Christian believers are not required to do animal sacrifices for sin offerings as followers and believers of Gods Messiah in Jesus. That would be a denial of Gods promised Messiah to who these shadow laws of the old covenant all pointed to. This is why the temple curtain was torn in two at Christs death (no more animal sacrifices). No more animal sacrifices and sin offerings are needed for atonement of sin in the new covenant as Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all was sacrificed in the lamb of God (John 1:29). These shadow laws are now fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to for all Christians both Jewish believers and Gentile believers who are all now one in Christ.

3rdAngel said:

Which does not say Jewish Christian believers must seek Gods forgives of sins through animal sacrifices and sin offerings from a Levite Priest in an earthly Temple.

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Actually, yes, it says precisely that.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Actually, yes, it says precisely that.

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Yea sorry scripture disagrees with your words that are not Gods Words (see why in post # 3455 linked that you simply ignored).

3rdAngel said:

Yea sorry scripture disagrees with your words that are not Gods Words (see why in post # 3455 linked that you simply ignored).

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I often just ignore you when you ramble on irrationally.