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Does God not intervening make God irrelevant

dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Based on human experiments, and all the unnecessary evil in the world, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. This is the main problem with God. And that is, God doesn't really answer prays very well, if at all. God seems to be completely indifferent to the needs of man.

This means God is always choosing his "long term plan" over short-term intervention. So what this means is, in my opinion, is if we soil our own bed, no one but ourselves is going to clean up our mess. In other words, people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for. The answer is not God. The answer is not Jesus. The only answer that ever works is people solving their own problems making God irrelevant.
 
JustGeorge

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
dfnj said:
Based on human experiments, and all the unnecessary evil in the world, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. This is the main problem with God. And that is, God doesn't really answer prays very well, if at all. God seems to be completely indifferent to the needs of man.

This means God is always choosing his "long term plan" over short-term intervention. So what this means is, in my opinion, is if we soil our own bed, no one but ourselves is going to clean up our mess. In other words, people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for. The answer is not God. The answer is not Jesus. The only answer that ever works is people solving their own problems making God irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Which God?

Why wouldn't shouldn't said God want people to clean up their messes?

Why assume said God is omnipotent?

Why is intervention the only way to be relevant?
 
C

Comradio251

Member
dfnj said:
Based on human experiments, and all the unnecessary evil in the world, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. This is the main problem with God. And that is, God doesn't really answer prays very well, if at all. God seems to be completely indifferent to the needs of man.

This means God is always choosing his "long term plan" over short-term intervention. So what this means is, in my opinion, is if we soil our own bed, no one but ourselves is going to clean up our mess. In other words, people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for. The answer is not God. The answer is not Jesus. The only answer that ever works is people solving their own problems making God irrelevant.
Click to expand...
This is what we call 'The Problem of Theodicy' from a theologian and Jewish perspective. However, I don't believe in free will. I do believe in destiny which is the opposite. Therefore, it solves this issue of 'evil' and 'bad' in the world because everything happens for a reason. It only makes sense this way to me. I don't think God shares the same concept of human morality so when we say something is 'good' or 'bad' it's entirely based on our perception of things. If it's God's plan for something 'good' or 'bad' to happen at a certain time it will happen to bring about some result which would be a part of His ultimate plan in the end for you and everyone else whether it directly or indirectly affects you.

To say God does not intervene, however, is subjective. Some people say he surely intervenes and some say it's impossible. For example, someone prayed a million times for a specific outcome to happen in their life only to be met with dead silence while someone else says I prayed once and the next day they got what they prayed for. I can only say for the first scenario is that such a person was not meant to have their prayer answered for a reason that they cannot understand at that time. But there's a reason for it.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
dfnj said:
In other words, people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for. The answer is not God. The answer is not Jesus. The only answer that ever works is people solving their own problems making God irrelevant.
Click to expand...
I agree that people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is responsible for.
God is not responsible for what each of us do, as people have to solve their own problems.

However that does not mean that God is irrelevant since God does other things for humans.
What God does for humans is to send Messengers in every age to guide humans to the straight path.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Comradio251 said:
This is what we call 'The Problem of Theodicy' from a theologian and Jewish perspective. However, I don't believe in free will. I do believe in destiny which is the opposite. Therefore, it solves this issue of 'evil' and 'bad' in the world because everything happens for a reason. It only makes sense this way to me.
Click to expand...
Destiny does not solve the problem of evil and bad because there has to be justice in this world, which means that people need to be held accountable for their actions, and if people did not have free will that would be impossible.

If Mr. Smith murders his wife, are we going to tell judge and jury "everything happens for a reason" ?
Comradio251 said:
I don't think God shares the same concept of human morality so when we say something is 'good' or 'bad' it's entirely based on our perception of things. If it's God's plan for something 'good' or 'bad' to happen at a certain time it will happen to bring about some result which would be a part of His ultimate plan in the end for you and everyone else whether it directly or indirectly affects you.
Click to expand...
I believe that God reveals what is good or bad through His Messengers which then becomes the the teachings and laws of God.
In other words, God sets the standards for human morality and humans are moral or immoral according to God's standards.

I do not believe that God causes anything good or bad to happen since I believe that human choices and actions are the cause of most things that happen in this world. If something happens to a person that is not chosen by that person then we could say that was their destiny, which might have been caused by another person's choices, or it might happen by accident or owing to a natural disaster, or because it was their fate, such as contracting a disease.
Comradio251 said:
To say God does not intervene, however, is subjective. Some people say he surely intervenes and some say it's impossible.
Click to expand...
The long and short of it is that we can never know if or when God intervenes, we can only believe He does.
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
dfnj said:
Based on human experiments, and all the unnecessary evil in the world, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will.
Click to expand...
By what is said in the Bible, when evilness grows big enough, God ends it. I wouldn't be surprised, if it would happen tomorrow. Hopefully you are ready for that.
dfnj said:
And that is, God doesn't really answer prays very well, if at all.
Click to expand...
How do you know? If things go as I have asked in prayer, is there some way to know was it because of God, or because of something else?
dfnj said:
...people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for.
Click to expand...
Please give one example?
 
Spice

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
dfnj said:
Based on human experiments, and all the unnecessary evil in the world, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. This is the main problem with God. And that is, God doesn't really answer prays very well, if at all. God seems to be completely indifferent to the needs of man.
Click to expand...
It's the type of prayers that are answered that makes the difference. The well-known Serenity Prayer is an excellent example. These prayers are like taking a deep breath. They remind us we'll be just fine if we stay on track.
dfnj said:
This means God is always choosing his "long term plan" over short-term intervention. So what this means is, in my opinion, is if we soil our own bed, no one but ourselves is going to clean up our mess.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. To use the Christian allegory, if we want back into the Garden of Eden then we better get busy "correctly" using the knowledge we stole.
dfnj said:
In other words, people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for. The answer is not God. The answer is not Jesus. The only answer that ever works is people solving their own problems making God irrelevant.
Click to expand...
God is our support, our hope, our coach. He has given us playbook after playbook, with plenty of assistant coaches, although some may confuse us more than help. And He sends us signals day and night. He can't explain things any better. Not now, anyway. We're still Pee-wee League skilled with pro expectations. And He's certainly not getting dressed-out to jump in the game. We have to get in shape and do the work!
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
dfnj said:
Based on human experiments, and all the unnecessary evil in the world, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. This is the main problem with God. And that is, God doesn't really answer prays very well, if at all. God seems to be completely indifferent to the needs of man.

This means God is always choosing his "long term plan" over short-term intervention. So what this means is, in my opinion, is if we soil our own bed, no one but ourselves is going to clean up our mess. In other words, people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for. The answer is not God. The answer is not Jesus. The only answer that ever works is people solving their own problems making God irrelevant.
Click to expand...
People have to get to the point to admit that God or Gods are simply not in the waking world.
 
soulsurvivor

soulsurvivor

Active Member
Premium Member
dfnj said:
Based on human experiments, and all the unnecessary evil in the world, there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. This is the main problem with God. And that is, God doesn't really answer prays very well, if at all. God seems to be completely indifferent to the needs of man.

This means God is always choosing his "long term plan" over short-term intervention. So what this means is, in my opinion, is if we soil our own bed, no one but ourselves is going to clean up our mess. In other words, people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is NOT responsible for. The answer is not God. The answer is not Jesus. The only answer that ever works is people solving their own problems making God irrelevant.
Click to expand...
What makes you so sure that the Gods do not intervene in human affairs? It is true that the Gods do not infringe on human free-will, but they do take actions to protect those who are 'innocent' -these are people whose karma is good enough so that the God's can protect them. Most of the people who suffer from evil acts of others already have some past bad karma that allows these evil acts to be successful. It is true that the Gods cannot prevent all such acts against 'innocent' people, but they do try in many cases. The problem is that most humans and most countries have committed so many evil deeds in the past in effect creating so much bad karma, that evil and suffering is inevitable in this world.
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
SalixIncendium said:
My glasses don't intervene in my day-to-day life, however, they are quite relevant to my ability to see clearly.
Click to expand...

You are lucky the science behind the lens physics is well understood. The funny thing about science is what scientists claim is true can be verified.
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
soulsurvivor said:
What makes you so sure that the Gods do not intervene in human affairs? It is true that the Gods do not infringe on human free-will, but they do take actions to protect those who are 'innocent' -these are people whose karma is good enough so that the God's can protect them. Most of the people who suffer from evil acts of others already have some past bad karma that allows these evil acts to be successful. It is true that the Gods cannot prevent all such acts against 'innocent' people, but they do try in many cases. The problem is that most humans and most countries have committed so many evil deeds in the past in effect creating so much bad karma, that evil and suffering is inevitable in this world.
Click to expand...

The WWII bombing of Dresden is proof God is a non-interventionist.
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Spice said:
It's the type of prayers that are answered that makes the difference. The well-known Serenity Prayer is an excellent example. These prayers are like taking a deep breath. They remind us we'll be just fine if we stay on track.

Absolutely. To use the Christian allegory, if we want back into the Garden of Eden then we better get busy "correctly" using the knowledge we stole.

God is our support, our hope, our coach. He has given us playbook after playbook, with plenty of assistant coaches, although some may confuse us more than help. And He sends us signals day and night. He can't explain things any better. Not now, anyway. We're still Pee-wee League skilled with pro expectations. And He's certainly not getting dressed-out to jump in the game. We have to get in shape and do the work!
Click to expand...

God does not provide any support at all has been my experience. The only way the problems in my life ever get solved is when I do the hard work of solving them myself.
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
1213 said:
By what is said in the Bible, when evilness grows big enough, God ends it. I wouldn't be surprised, if it would happen tomorrow. Hopefully you are ready for that.

How do you know? If things go as I have asked in prayer, is there some way to know was it because of God, or because of something else?

Please give one example?
Click to expand...

RE: How do you know?

I live in the real world. I am evidence based. There is no evidence God intervenes in the affairs of men. Gravity only occurs in one direction. Things never float on your own or defy the laws of physics. So the answer to your question is I only know what I experience directly. Everything else is just imaginary delusion only occurring my thought-space of my mind.
 
dfnj

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I agree that people have to behave like adults which means taking responsibility for what each of us is responsible for.
God is not responsible for what each of us do, as people have to solve their own problems.

However that does not mean that God is irrelevant since God does other things for humans.
What God does for humans is to send Messengers in every age to guide humans to the straight path.
Click to expand...

Give me one example of God doing something for humans. And how do you know it was God as the agency of the action?
 
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