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New here but feels like a debate

PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
SeekingBalance said:
When I say I'm new I grew up very religious. Door-to-door religious and skeptical of what I was preaching but most of my time was spent either in school or in church with a slightly less amount of time dedicated to sleeping.

I know now that this religion you could all guess if I told you it wasn't Mormon but is based on older stories and somewhat related but similar to some chiropractic ideas except they don't accept blood transfusions.

Raising kids in this manner while not quite Jesus Camp level abuse and I won't speak for everyone I grew up with because they would disagree perhaps. I forgot the podcast I listened to recently but I think it was about Feynman and someone said kids ask religious questions which we don't have answers to so we choose to lie to them. Not because we are evil people that want to lie but we don't know and when we don't know we often get uncomfortable. So lets say your not religious but you might give some sperm and egg or birds and the bees but ultimately the kid is asking why am I here? You are answering HOW they got here but they want to know WHY. Its a hard question to answer but since I'm new I'll toss it out to you the reader. I hope all is well.
Click to expand...
Great post!

Why indeed!

I think we're here to ask ourselves this question, and then to have to decide an answer for ourselves. Because when we do that, we are then deciding who we will become as a result of the answers we choose. We get to "create ourselves".

For example, let's say I decide the answer to this question is ... to serve my own desires. That's why I exist. Hedonism. And having made that choice, I then become it through my thoughts and actions. I become the embodiment of the philosophy I chose.

Or let's say I decide that the answer to the question, "why am I here?", is to serve others. Just the opposite of hedonism, but altruism. And having made that choice, I then become an altruist through my thoughts and actions. In essence, I create myself by how I chose to answer this unanswerable question.

I think that maybe this is WHY this question is unanswerable from a perspective of knowledge or surety. We can't know why, so we have to decide why according to our own innate spirit. And in so doing we become that innate spirit.
 
SeekingBalance

SeekingBalance

Member
an anarchist said:
Hee hee I just started Atlas Shrugged actually, not that far in. But yes, I am a libertarian.


As for the Ancient Greek view, I am also reading Plato currently but I am no expert. Just started studying the branch of philosophy specifically. I've done plenty of reading on theology and different religions as well as some political philosophy, but I am barely starting my study of philosophy philosophy.
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One odd thing I recently learned is the ancient Greeks didn't bother to test any of their ideas. (It just didn't occur to them. It seems to be more about the beauty of the poetry. (I believe I read it's like how some modern scientists get caught up with the beauty or symmetry of the equations for some ideas that are just too pleasing to be wrong))

an anarchist said:
I think we are part of a collective. Suppose each individual to be a potential deity. But the human race itself as a collective is a potential cosmic force i.e. deity, the one that has the power to overcome the physicality of mortality. The distinction between the collective and the individual, as well as the significance and limits of the individual, is something still under contemplation, as is all my theories and thoughts.
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Yep, it can be a struggle to consider everyone's potential while also considering the collective. (Again, I am often wrong but I think you mean that if humans just all started to work together they could have god-like powers compared to how they behave today) It sounds like in your words you are explaining the problems with individualism vs collectivism.

Interesting.

I hope all is well!
 
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an anarchist

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
SeekingBalance said:
(Again, I am often wrong but I think you mean that if humans just all started to work together they could have god-like powers compared to how they behave today)
Click to expand...
An example I think is rather apparent is war... "What if they had a war, but nobody showed up?" I'm a real history geek, just finished an indepth study of WW1 a couple months back... Started studying the interwar years but the depression overcame my curiosity finally. What I mean is this: history is depressing. I studied WW1 week by week, and each week of the war, it somehow got worse. And WW2 I know gets much worse. So I put off my history studies for now, but, like I said, I'm a huge history geek, (specifically when it comes to the history of war), so I'll be back to studying it soon.

Gosh anyways my point is, it is my educated opinion that humans can do better currently. WW1 was ordinary men killing ordinary men. Of course, perhaps an "ordinary man" is synonymous with "monster". If you study war, there is a case to be made for that. We are the arbiters of life and death... And so often we choose to inflict death! In fact, the process of war is a continuous one. But we don't have to. People believe when they get a draft notice in the mail, they then have no choice and have to become a killer. This is not so. One person dodging the draft wouldn't stop a war, but imagine a whole nation refusing to take part in wholesale murder. This is literally possible. There is not a law like gravity forcing us to war amongst each other. Whatever is causing us to war constantly can be overcome. We just don't. Though, through force of will, we cannot presently become immortal, we can, through force of will, stop killing each other. That has to happen first before we can consider the next step.
 
SeekingBalance

SeekingBalance

Member
an anarchist said:
An example I think is rather apparent is war... "What if they had a war, but nobody showed up?" I'm a real history geek, just finished an indepth study of WW1 a couple months back... Started studying the interwar years but the depression overcame my curiosity finally. What I mean is this: history is depressing. I studied WW1 week by week, and each week of the war, it somehow got worse. And WW2 I know gets much worse. So I put off my history studies for now, but, like I said, I'm a huge history geek, (specifically when it comes to the history of war), so I'll be back to studying it soon.

Gosh anyways my point is, it is my educated opinion that humans can do better currently. WW1 was ordinary men killing ordinary men. Of course, perhaps an "ordinary man" is synonymous with "monster". If you study war, there is a case to be made for that. We are the arbiters of life and death... And so often we choose to inflict death! In fact, the process of war is a continuous one. But we don't have to. People believe when they get a draft notice in the mail, they then have no choice and have to become a killer. This is not so. One person dodging the draft wouldn't stop a war, but imagine a whole nation refusing to take part in wholesale murder. This is literally possible. There is not a law like gravity forcing us to war amongst each other. Whatever is causing us to war constantly can be overcome. We just don't. Though, through force of will, we cannot presently become immortal, we can, through force of will, stop killing each other. That has to happen first before we can consider the next step.
Click to expand...

I have been meandering through the people's history of the United States. It's one thing to think you know how this country came about and I went to all your standard public schools and when I had cancer even had a few high-end tutors but still... It's hard to contemplate. I think it's awesome that you are exploring history.

The whole draft thing I get. I remember how sad I felt signing up for the draft and also a few years trying to sign up for the military. (I wanted to go to college and in the US it is usually a no-go if you are poor but the military is right there unless you had cancer.)

I am just looking at your arguments of power now. Interesting. I agree we need to overcome war.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
If our past predicts our future, humanity is screwed. There is zero chance that we will see ourselves creating our own destruction and finally decide not to go there this time. Our obsession with wanting to control everything and everyone is just far too strong for us to resist, especially if we have to resist it unilaterally. And since we are a collective, cooperative species, that is how we would have to do it.

I don't want to be such a pessimist, but I think it's only a matter of time.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
PureX said:
I don't want to be such a pessimist....
Click to expand...
Hah!
You love it.

Now, back to the newbie....
OIP.aYeESx_LL7-pqNkCRGtF0gHaFj
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Stevicus said:
And sometimes even the light-hearted threads can have some very profound, serious statements. Just like in the thread, The last post is the WINNER!, someone posted the meaning of life in there once. For a time, all the answers of the Universe became clear, and everything made sense. But then, people kept posting "I win" "I win" "I win," and the answer was lost.
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I posted in that one but it is never ending, isn't it?
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
SeekingBalance said:
Hi Muffled,

I didn't come down from heaven. How is it you did?
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I am not usually in Heaven but my previous life was traumatic and I needed a rest from evil. My wife was different. I met her in Heaven and she came with me to earth but for her she would be happy if she never left Heaven.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Trailblazer said:
Hi, and a belated welcome to the forum. :)

So you believed that people are going to live forever on earth? With all due respect to JWs, I think that is the most absurd belief that they hold, and it is not supported by the Bible. It is all a made up doctrine of the JW church which came about completely misinterpreting the Bible., but you will never convince them of that because they want to live on earth forever and they have a dreamy notion of how it will be like the Garden of Eden. Glad you got out.

Who would want to live forever on earth anyway? I sure wouldn't.
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I believe they got that one right but there is no guarantee it will be this earth. This earth is in for huge remodeling. At any rate our first destination is the New Jerusalem which is in heaven when we arrive there.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Muffled said:
At any rate our first destination is the New Jerusalem which is in heaven when we arrive there.
Click to expand...
I do not believe that the New Jerusalem is in Heaven. I believe it is on Earth, now.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
 
SeekingBalance

SeekingBalance

Member
Revoltingest said:
Hah!
You love it.

Now, back to the newbie....
OIP.aYeESx_LL7-pqNkCRGtF0gHaFj
Click to expand...

Hi Revoltingest,

A libertarian. (I believe that is two people I have met on this site who are out and proud Libertarians.) It's not my cup of tea though but if it were... Switzerland? Maybe Estonia? Are there any Libertarian countries? I know the Ayn Rand series which I've never read but I did watch a few. (Atlas Shrugged)

In any event, I won't hold it against you. Maybe you will talk me into it as I haven't spent a lot of time pondering it.

Thanks for the welcome!
 
SeekingBalance

SeekingBalance

Member
Trailblazer said:
I do not believe that the New Jerusalem is in Heaven. I believe it is on Earth, now.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
Click to expand...
When I was a Witness I would say you are both kind of right. There will be a few fortunate souls that will exist in some realm called heaven while the planet will be restored to a paradise and every one worthy will live forever in this paradise. (They won't get sick, hungry, or die just immortal like little gods that live forever with their ever-growing family in a paradise on earth)

Psalms says the righteous themselves will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it.

I think you both would differ from this view. I don't think it's a reasonable prediction. (Not the only reason for not being a witness but one.)

I hope all is well!
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
SeekingBalance said:
When I was a Witness I would say you are both kind of right. There will be a few fortunate souls that will exist in some realm called heaven while the planet will be restored to a paradise and every one worthy will live forever in this paradise. (They won't get sick, hungry, or die just immortal like little gods that live forever with their ever-growing family in a paradise on earth)
Click to expand...
One thing that the Witnesses did not think of or chose to ignore is that even if the worthy people remained on earth eventually that number would grow unless they had no children, and the earth only has so much capacity to support human population.
SeekingBalance said:
Psalms says the righteous themselves will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it.
Click to expand...
I know that and there are also other verses that say that. Witnesses think those verses mean that the righteous people who die will rise from their graves and get a new physical body after which time they will live on forever on earth. nothing in the Bible says that, it is all a made up Doctrine.
SeekingBalance said:
I think you both would differ from this view. I don't think it's a reasonable prediction. (Not the only reason for not being a witness but one.)
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Yes, my view is different. As I always tell Witnesses, I believe that the righteous people who are living when the New Earth is built and the generations of righteous people who are born after them are the people who will inherit the New Earth. That is what it means when it says that the meek and the righteous will inherit the earth, meek and righteous living people, not meek and righteous dead people who were resurrected back to life.
 
SeekingBalance

SeekingBalance

Member
Trailblazer said:
Yes, my view is different. As I always tell Witnesses, I believe that the righteous people who are living when the New Earth is built and the generations of righteous people who are born after them are the people who will inherit the New Earth. That is what it means when it says that the meek and the righteous will inherit the earth, meek and righteous living people, not meek and righteous dead people who were resurrected back to life.
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Hah, yeah that would make a lot more sense. However, if they can have kids and can't die and the earth isn't going to grow then what is the plan? (Dinosaurs had a plan)

It is fun to ponder that people who died in biblical times would be resurrected and handed a Smart Phone and a modern home with plumbing etc.

That is a show I would watch.

I hope all is well!
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
SeekingBalance said:
Hi Revoltingest,

A libertarian. (I believe that is two people I have met on this site who are out and proud Libertarians.) It's not my cup of tea though but if it were... Switzerland? Maybe Estonia? Are there any Libertarian countries? I know the Ayn Rand series which I've never read but I did watch a few. (Atlas Shrugged)

In any event, I won't hold it against you. Maybe you will talk me into it as I haven't spent a lot of time pondering it.

Thanks for the welcome!
Click to expand...
Libertarianism doesn't appear to be a philosophy
that ever fully arises in any country. All I hope for
is that USA head more in that direction, eg, strong
civil rights.
 
Spice

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Trailblazer said:
I do not believe that the New Jerusalem is in Heaven. I believe it is on Earth, now.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
Click to expand...
I think I lean towards Judaism on this one...the World to come. More distinction than this from the Jewish perspective, I don't recall, but I also don't believe it matters to me.
 
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