Trinity - Fact or Fiction?

Angel A · Jun 7, 2007

Dream Angel said:
Nowhere does the bible say Jesus is God.

Yes it does

Romans 9:5=
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.[
Romans 9:5
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Colossians 2:9=
For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.
Chapter 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

John 1:1=
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 10:30-33
30 I and my Father are one.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me
John 14:7-9
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 20:28=
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

UnityNow101 · Jun 7, 2007

Angel..You may quote those if you wish, but that in no way diminishes the passages in which Jesus clearly states that He has a God and that He of Himself can do NOTHING. God gave Jesus the power to perform miracles and to preach the message with such authority. But one must remember that that power was derived from the Almighty, as Jesus Himself attests to. I would like to know how one can justify their position of Jesus being God when confronted with the passage in which Jesus says that He has a God...Does God have a God? I would think not. Lest we should join partners with the Almighty!

Dream Angel · Jun 7, 2007

UnityNow101 said:
Angel..You may quote those if you wish, but that in no way diminishes the passages in which Jesus clearly states that He has a God and that He of Himself can do NOTHING. God gave Jesus the power to perform miracles and to preach the message with such authority. But one must remember that that power was derived from the Almighty, as Jesus Himself attests to. I would like to know how one can justify their position of Jesus being God when confronted with the passage in which Jesus says that He has a God...Does God have a God? I would think not. Lest we should join partners with the Almighty!

Good points. To the men who wrote the bible Jesus probably was like a God, he resembled a God not only because he also was made in the Father's image but because God the Father gave him the power to do so! This does not mean that Jesus was The Almighty God.

The verses which state Jesus as God, come from men alone - they prob would have seen him as a god like figure because of the miracles her performed, but this power came from his father! The one true God.

Notice how any passages where Jesus is talking, he always refers to his Father and the statement "we are one" doesnt mean they are the same being, but a family ie The Godhead. But they are distinct beings.

sojourner · Jun 7, 2007

UnityNow101 said:
Angel..You may quote those if you wish, but that in no way diminishes the passages in which Jesus clearly states that He has a God and that He of Himself can do NOTHING. God gave Jesus the power to perform miracles and to preach the message with such authority. But one must remember that that power was derived from the Almighty, as Jesus Himself attests to. I would like to know how one can justify their position of Jesus being God when confronted with the passage in which Jesus says that He has a God...Does God have a God? I would think not. Lest we should join partners with the Almighty!

You have just stated the nature of human reconciliation with God. The "destination" of our spiritual journey is to become fully reconciled to and fully united with God. That mystic union is played out in our sharing of Eucharist: "We who are many are one Body, because we all share one Bread, one Cup (the Body and Blood of Jesus).

Just as Jesus is both fully human and fully God, so we, too, can grow to be in union with God. Just as Jesus can do nothing without God (but can work miracles through God, so we are told that we can do everything through Christ.

Jesus, being both fully human and fully God had to speak to us "out of both sides of his mouth" so that we could understand.

Dirty Penguin · Jun 7, 2007

From what I have read of the scriptures Jesus is not God.

Jesus was sent here, not by his will, but the will of God. The holy spirit was bestowed upon him to aid him.

Jesus and God share a "oneness" but they are not "one in the same"

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Matt 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.............

Matt 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

John
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John
5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Just my 2Cents.....(for now)

Dream Angel · Jun 7, 2007

DreGod07 said:
From what I have read of the scriptures Jesus is not God.

Jesus was sent here, not by his will, but the will of God. The holy spirit was bestowed upon him to aid him.

Jesus and God share a "oneness" but they are not "one in the same"

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Matt 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.............

Matt 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

John
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John
5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Just my 2Cents.....(for now)

Some good quotes there...... Thanks!

fullyveiled muslimah · Jun 7, 2007

"Let US make man in OUR image."
Is a quote Directly from the Hebrew scripture.
Just like it is written the angel Gabriel helped your prophet (peace be upon him) write the Quran. The fact that he uses humans and Angels to do his will does not lessen his Greatness does it?

Correction: Jibreel did NOT help Muhammad write the Quran simply because Muhammad didn't write the Quran. Allah revealed the Quran to Muhammad, Jibreel gave the messege.

I never denied that Allah does in fact use people to help other people. My point was that in order for Allah to forgive, or 'reconcile' the human being He could have done it Himself without resorting to killing an innocent man. In fact according to Islam Allah did forgive Adam and Eve, and their trangressions stayed between them.

I'm not sure what the quote from Genesis is supposed to be about. Are you trying to prove that the use of the words 'us' and 'our' indicate a trinity? If so then I suggest you learn something more about Hebrew language. Much like arabic, hebrew has terms for what is referred to as the royal we. The plurality does not indicate number, it indicates respect, much like a king or queen would refer to themselves as 'us' and 'we', or even in the third person.

If you mean only to say that the Trinity is not necessary since God is sufficient all on His own... well then, you are saying that you understand the nature of God.

Yep. Trinity is unecessary because Allah is self-suffucient and not in need of a partner. Your quote above seems as though you confirm this conclusion....why?

fullyveiled muslimah · Jun 7, 2007

As far as it being beyond you when you were a Christian... that raises a red flag. If you don't understand how God could become man, then how are you supposed to believe that Jesus died for your sin? How can a mere man forgive you of sins that were not against him, but against God? My guess is that, if you didn't understand that, then you weren't a Christian.

So what you are saying is that any christian without a total understanding of the trinity doctrine isn't really a christian? If that's it then there are a whole lot of non-christians walking around, who oddly have faith in what they barely understand. I said I didn't understand it when I was a christian, not that I didn't believe it. The belief did fade however, when I failed to logically grasp it as I got older.

kmkemp · Jun 7, 2007

fullyveiled muslimah said:
So what you are saying is that any christian without a total understanding of the trinity doctrine isn't really a christian? If that's it then there are a whole lot of non-christians walking around, who oddly have faith in what they barely understand. I said I didn't understand it when I was a christian, not that I didn't believe it. The belief did fade however, when I failed to logically grasp it as I got older.

I think that I mistook your non-understanding for your unbelief. Apologies.

I would wonder why you are debating how the Trinity is not possible or Biblical if you do not understand it from a Christian perspective, however.

Dirty Penguin · Jun 7, 2007

kmkemp said:
I think that I mistook your non-understanding for your unbelief. Apologies.

I would wonder why you are debating how the Trinity is not possible or Biblical if you do not understand it from a Christian perspective, however.

Ahhh...but there you have it.....As you can see she's not debating it from a christian point of view. Her view is from a Muslim point of. I would say that there are a lot of christians that do not except the trinity theory either.

Dream Angel · Jun 7, 2007

DreGod07 said:
Ahhh...but there you have it.....As you can see she's not debating it from a christian point of view. Her view is from a Muslim point of. I would say that there are a lot of christians that do not except the trinity theory either.

Myself being one!

kmkemp · Jun 7, 2007

DreGod07 said:
Ahhh...but there you have it.....As you can see she's not debating it from a christian point of view. Her view is from a Muslim point of. I would say that there are a lot of christians that do not except the trinity theory either.

I question whether one can be a Christian and not accept the Trinity.

TashaN · Jun 7, 2007

DreGod07 said:
From what I have read of the scriptures Jesus is not God.

Jesus was sent here, not by his will, but the will of God. The holy spirit was bestowed upon him to aid him.

Jesus and God share a "oneness" but they are not "one in the same"

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Matt 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.............

Matt 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

John
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John
5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Just my 2Cents.....(for now)

It seems to me that even in the bible itself, Jesus decleared himself as nothing but a Messenger of God, nothing higher than that.

Dream Angel · Jun 7, 2007

kmkemp said:
I question whether one can be a Christian and not accept the Trinity.

A christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ. So anyone who believes that Jesus is The Son of God is a Christian.

Dirty Penguin · Jun 7, 2007

The Truth said:
It seems to me that even in the bible itself, Jesus decleared himself as nothing but a Messenger of God, nothing higher than that.

I like when you post. You and I are on the same page with this subject. I have viewed many debates you have had with (Apple Pie) (muffled) and a few others and I love referring back to the information you list.

I have been involved in the thread (Is Jesus God In The Flesh) and I have posted thee same passages abd I got accused for interperting what Jesus was saying. I tried to state my case that I didn't but then they got on the (John 1.1) and the trinitarian there said the verse was plain and should be viewed as such and Jesus is God as described in that verse. I found it amazing because I said the same thing with the passages that Jesus is clearly praying to God. Now I've often wondered why God would send God to Pray to God.....:sarcastic....Then I'm left with the basic logic that Jesus is not God.

I accept that others believe in the trinity and if that is their way of life then fine for them.

Can anyone here put up the passages where Jesus says he is God? because every verse that some one has given me Jesus is saying "the father sent me".... or "my God and your God"... or I was commanded of what to say by the father who sent me.... or "my God", "my God", why have "you" forsaken "me"?

I thought passages like this were plain and showed that God and Jesus are seperate.

Dirty Penguin · Jun 7, 2007

kmkemp said:
I question whether one can be a Christian and not accept the Trinity.

I don't think acceptane of the trinity is a criteria for being a christian.

There are muslim who don't read or except the hadith, only the Quran, but that does not mean that they are not muslims

TashaN · Jun 7, 2007

DreGod07 said:
I like when you post. You and I are on the same page with this subject. I have viewed many debates you have had with (Apple Pie) (muffled) and a few others and I love referring back to the information you list.

I have been involved in the thread (Is Jesus God In The Flesh) and I have posted thee same passages abd I got accused for interperting what Jesus was saying. I tried to state my case that I didn't but then they got on the (John 1.1) and the trinitarian there said the verse was plain and should be viewed as such and Jesus is God as described in that verse. I found it amazing because I said the same thing with the passages that Jesus is clearly praying to God. Now I've often wondered why God would send God to Pray to God.....:sarcastic....Then I'm left with the basic logic that Jesus is not God.

I accept that others believe in the trinity and if that is their way of life then fine for them.

Can anyone here put up the passages where Jesus says he is God? because every verse that some one has given me Jesus is saying "the father sent me".... or "my God and your God"... or I was commanded of what to say by the father who sent me.... or "my God", "my God", why have "you" forsaken "me"?

I thought passages like this were plain and showed that God and Jesus are seperate.

Thanks for your nice words dear DreGod.

Believe me, no where in the bible Jesus claimed that he is God and that people should worship him, and the only answer you will get is so feeble and laughable. They will tell you, Jesus was a humble God, that's why he let that to people to figure it out. :cover:

People are not looking for the truth, but rather, trying to enforce what they believe to be the truth by any means, even if they themselves didn't believe in what they say or write.

If it wasn't for Paul, non-Jews would remain Pagans, or might be anything else, but not Christianity. That's because Jesus was sent only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Well, that will drag us to another topic, so i better focus on this one.

Dirty Penguin · Jun 8, 2007

The Truth said:
Thanks for your nice words dear DreGod.

Believe me, no where in the bible Jesus claimed that he is God and that people should worship him, and the only answer you will get is so feeble and laughable. They will tell you, Jesus was a humble God, that's why he let that to people to figure it out. :cover:

People are not looking for the truth, but rather, trying to enforce what they believe to be the truth by any means, even if they themselves didn't believe in what they say or write.

If it wasn't for Paul, non-Jews would remain Pagans, or might be anything else, but not Christianity. That's because Jesus was sent only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Well, that will drag us to another topic, so i better focus on this one.

And once again, I totally to agree. Everytime I hear or read some of the replies or websites on trinity and how Jesus "IS" God, I'm always brought back to the (PLAIN) text of Jesus's words or actions and that is where the theory breaks down.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This is why I say oneness but not (one in the same).

John 5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Matthew 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Mark 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

(If He is God then wouldn't he know if it was possible or not?....And if he is God then who was he praying to??)

Mark 14:39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

Luke 5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Luke 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and EliYah:
9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Now he above is interesting because we now have to wonder why they appeared to "God" to tell "God" what "God" should already have known. It's still interesting that "God" is praying at this point (Praying to who??)...

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Why was "God" in agony and who was "God" praying so earnestly to???

The answer is simple and plain. Jesus was not God or part of a trinity.

fullyveiled muslimah · Jun 8, 2007

So many problems of the doctrines as confusion on the issue is clarified when Jesus isn't placed on some pedastal he ain't even on. I don't know why more christians don't abandon the idea. I know that sounds callous, but I strongly suggest each christian try to view it from a non-trinitarian POV and see if it makes more sense.

Dream Angel · Jun 8, 2007

fullyveiled muslimah said:
So many problems of the doctrines as confusion on the issue is clarified when Jesus isn't placed on some pedastal he ain't even on. I don't know why more christians don't abandon the idea. I know that sounds callous, but I strongly suggest each christian try to view it from a non-trinitarian POV and see if it makes more sense.

It works too! (but then I am a non-trinitarian I would say that)!

Trinity - Fact or Fiction?

Trinity: Fact or Fiction!

Fact

Fiction

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Master Of Ceremony

Well-Known Member

Evil incarnate!

Evil incarnate!

Active Member

Master Of Ceremony

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Master Of Ceremony

Master Of Ceremony

Veteran Member

Master Of Ceremony

Evil incarnate!

Well-Known Member