Is Christianity monotheistic or polytheistic?

IndigoChild5559 said:

Christian teaching is that Jesus and the Father are the same essense but different people. Confusing? Absolutely.

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One way to understand the mystery is with an example. Picture a man named Joe. Joe is a father to his children, a son to his parents and husband to his wife. Joe one person and does not have a multiple personality disorder; polytheism. Rather Joe plays three different roles, since he supports three groups with having different needs. The children call him dad, the wife calls him dear, while his parents call him son. But he is one person we all know as Joe.

The Old Testament worships the Father. The New Testament worship the Son, while the Third yet to be writtenTestament, worships the promise of the Holy Spirit. They are of one essence; God=Joe, but with different hats. Combined they encompass the Judea-Christian spirit of God.

Xavier Graham said:

My former Baptist pastor would say this verse was evidence of the Trinity.

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'Baptist pastor' can mean almost anything. I live in a US state with a variety of small baptist churches. They aren't the same when it comes to views on trinity. Some of them glom together for missions but are otherwise independent in their views. Some are bound together by common creeds. Some are ruled by deacons or elders or boards. Some have only a few people. Others have thousands.

Xavier Graham said:

Is Christianity polytheistic? Let's see.

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A baptist pastor's sermons are not sufficient for determining whether Christianity is polytheistic, and they aren't a standard. They might call themselves one if they like.

Xavier Graham said:

Jesus is the son of god. There is a separation between the father and the son, right?

Saying Jesus is the same as his father reminds me of Advaita Vedanta. We are all one with Brahman in this theology. Is it something similar?

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Pearl has explained this already. So have others like Left Coast. Its not like Advaita Vedanta.

Xavier Graham said:

I'm sure threads on this topic has been made before, but...

Is Christianity monotheistic or polytheistic?

Genesis 1:26

My former Baptist pastor would say this verse was evidence of the Trinity.

As a Christian, it was hard to wrap my ahead around God being 3 in 1. I never thought to hard on it we a youngster.

Is Christianity polytheistic? Let's see.

They worship Jehovah.
They worship Jesus.
Do they worship the Holy Spirit as well? I'm not sure.

Jesus is the son of god. There is a separation between the father and the son, right?

Saying Jesus is the same as his father reminds me of Advaita Vedanta. We are all one with Brahman in this theology. Is it something similar?

I'm curious what everyone thinks, not just Christians.

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Plural manifestation. Loyal sons of God are a part of God.

wellwisher said:

One way to understand the mystery is with an example. Picture a man named Joe. Joe is a father to his children, a son to his parents and husband to his wife. Joe one person and does not have a multiple personality disorder; polytheism. Rather Joe plays three different roles, since he supports three groups with having different needs. The children call him dad, the wife calls him dear, while his parents call him son. But he is one person we all know as Joe.

The Old Testament worships the Father. The New Testament worship the Son, while the Third yet to be writtenTestament, worships the promise of the Holy Spirit. They are of one essence; God=Joe, but with different hats. Combined they encompass the Judea-Christian spirit of God.

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Your analogy about Joe basically shows Joe functioning in different modes. IOW it is not an illustration of trinitarianism, but of modalism.

IndigoChild5559 said:

but thats not what they believe. they believe that Jesus was fully man and fully god. Does that make sense to me? not at all. but it is nevertheless what they believe.

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Who are 'they' in this instance?

There is a very broad, and fluid, spectrum of belief within Christianity, and even within particular Christian sects, with regards to the nature of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I was taught in my Catholic school, that there are mysteries within Christianity which will always be beyond human comprehension, and that this is one of them.

I think christianity is monotheism but not strict monotheism. It is not correct to say christians is polytheists

In the offical trinity doctrine the three persons in God has same essence. The essence is the divine substance that binds them together as one God. Because of this the three persons in God can never split apart from each other. They are always togheter as one and they work always as one. And remember the three persons in God is also one in purpose and will.

For example two humans who is Conjoined twins. They are always togheter as one because both two humans has one hand that is fused together in the other's hand, and they both has one leg that is fused togheter in the other persons leg. They also share the same blood literaly. The same blood passes through both of their bodies. And if doctor do surgery because he want to split the two humans apart they both die.

And yes i know this is a bad example because two humans is not God. God is pure spirit. God do not die. And God is spiritual not physical.

Heyo said:

That's what many Christians say and I take their word for it. So, Christianity is monotheistic with henotheistic roots.
It also means that Christianity is illogical as they don't believe in the concept of identity.

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It's not so much that Christians don't believe in logical concepts like the law of identity, but rather that some things transcend it. This is perhaps one manifestation of a tension between Aristotelian and Christian philosophy in European culture, that has always been unresolved

RestlessSoul said:

Who are 'they' in this instance?

There is a very broad, and fluid, spectrum of belief within Christianity, and even within particular Christian sects, with regards to the nature of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I was taught in my Catholic school, that there are mysteries within Christianity which will always be beyond human comprehension, and that this is one of them.

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mainstream christians.

Xavier Graham said:

Genesis 1:26

My former Baptist pastor would say this verse was evidence of the Trinity.

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That verse does not say anything about the Trinity. Do you have the right one?

RestlessSoul said:

It's not so much that Christians don't believe in logical concepts like the law of identity, but rather that some things transcend it. This is perhaps one manifestation of a tension between Aristotelian and Christian philosophy in European culture, that has always been unresolved

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When something "transcends logic," that makes it illogical.

Eddi said:

So you're talking about identity being transitive?

You're basically saying that if both (for instance) The Son and The Holy Spirit are both "God" then The Son and The Holy Spirit are therefore the same thing? Because they are both God? Is that what you're saying?

Son = God
Holy Spirit = God
Therefore: Son = Holy Spirit

Is that right?

But what if in this instance identity is not transitive?

Not all things that can be transitive are transitive:

I love my wife
My wife loves the postman
Therefore I love the postman

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Under Trinitarian doctrine, Jesus is wholly God and synonymous with God. Jehovah is also wholly God and synonymous with God. The Holy Spirit is also wholly God and synonymous with God.

If Jesus is wholly God and synonymous with God, then that makes the statement "Jesus is God" transitive, by definition. They are completely equivalent under Trinitarian doctrine. Jesus is equivalent to God in the same way 2+2 is equivalent to 4. This means that we can substitute the word "Jesus" any time we see the word God. This is the Trinity under Trinitarianism:

Jesus is God.
Jehovah is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Jesus is not Jehovah.
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
Jehovah is not the Holy Spirit.

So let's do the replacement:

Jesus is Jesus.
Jehovah is Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is Jesus.
Jesus is not Jehovah.
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
Jehovah is not the Holy Spirit.

There's a contradiction here. The Holy Spirit is both Jesus and not Jesus. Jehovah is both Jesus and not Jesus. We can even go further than that, though. Since each of the terms simplify to "God is God" in the same way 2+2=4 simplifies to 4=4 we actually get:

God is God
God is God
God is God
God is not God
God is not God
God is not God

So it's not only a contradiction between "God is God" and "God is not God" but "God is not God" is itself a contradiction. This is the direct consequence of how Trinitarianism defines itself.

Under modal logic, claims that violate the laws of logic like the Law of Identity and the Law of Noncontradiction are considered "metaphysically impossible," which means that we can formally say that Trinitarianism is necessarily false. Since Trinitarianism violates logic, that makes it literally illogical to believe in.

And yet Trinitarianism is a mainstay of mainstream Christianity. I think it bolsters the point that Christianity didn't become popular because it's true, but because they were so brutally efficient at coercing people into accepting their doctrines that we now have people literally affirming a doctrine which is completely impossible and self-refuting.

Ella S. said:

When something "transcends logic," that makes it illogical.

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Perhaps. But being illogical doesn’t mean impossible. Logic has it’s limitations, as all things do.

RestlessSoul said:

Perhaps. But being illogical doesn’t mean impossible. Logic has it’s limitations, as all things do.

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Logic has its limitations, but that's because it's a process or a methodology. The output of logic is only as good as its inputs.

What logic excels at, and what it was designed for, is discovering truth. In this specific case, Trinitarianism is literally impossible as formally defined by modal logic. Logic is very good at recognizing when something is impossible, because "impossible" is another way of saying "necessarily false." This is the one thing that logic is actually good at.

You're trying to turn logic's one strength and purpose into something it can't do at all. All this demonstrates is that you don't understand or use logic in your thought processes. Which makes them illogical.

Xavier Graham said:

...................Genesis 1:26
My former Baptist pastor would say this verse was evidence of the Trinity.
As a Christian, it was hard to wrap my ahead around God being 3 in 1. I never thought to hard on it we a youngster.
Is Christianity polytheistic? Let's see.
They worship Jehovah.
They worship Jesus.
Do they worship the Holy Spirit as well? I'm not sure.
Jesus is the son of god. There is a separation between the father and the son, right?
Saying Jesus is the same as his father reminds me of Advaita Vedanta. We are all one with Brahman in this theology. Is it something similar? I'm curious what everyone thinks, not just Christians.

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First, I find at Gen.1:26 God is speaking to someone " Let 'us'....." (God is Not speaking to Himself)
..... according to 'our' likeness......
Both words 'us' and 'our' implies someone else involved.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus is the one separate person of Proverbs 8:22-31.
The created one of Revelation 3:14 B: 1:5
Jesus is the one who descended and ascended to Heaven - Proverbs 30:4
Whereas Earth can't contain God - 1 Kings 8:27
God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is a neuter "it" at Numbers 11:17,25
Even in English we speak of a car or ship as a "she" and we know they are and remain a neuter "it".
Jesus instructed to worship Jehovah at John 4:23-24.
King James translated a word that can mean ' bow down ' as one can bow down in respect instead of worship.
So, Not Jesus, Not God's spirit, but only the God of Jesus (John 17:6; John 17:26) is to be worshipped.

cOLTER said:

Plural manifestation. Loyal sons of God are a part of God.

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I can agree as being 'part' in the sense of being 'one' as Jesus prayed at John 17:11; John 17:20-23.
One in: faith, obedience, goal, purpose, will, attention, belief, agreement, unity, objective, harmony, etc.
Yes, sons are part of the father, but the equals are the brothers.

URAVIP2ME said:

First, I find at Gen.1:26 God is speaking to someone " Let 'us'....." (God is Not speaking to Himself)

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The traditional interpretation is that he is talking to the angels.

IndigoChild5559 said:

The traditional interpretation is that he is talking to the angels.

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Thank you for your reply.
To me, the angels (plural) did Not have a collective hand in creation. - Genesis 1:26
Only God's pre-human heavenly Son was used in creation.- John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
ALL things come through Jesus - Proverbs 8:22-31
Jesus gives his God the credit as being Creator - Revelation 4:11

URAVIP2ME said:

Thank you for your reply.
To me, the angels (plural) did Not have a collective hand in creation. - Genesis 1:26
Only God's pre-human heavenly Son was used in creation.- John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
ALL things come through Jesus - Proverbs 8:22-31
Jesus gives his God the credit as being Creator - Revelation 4:11

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Obviously if God was talking to the angels in Genesis 1:26, the angels did i n some manner assist in creation. You will find this traditional understanding in the older generation. For example, JRR Tolkien based his myth about the creation of middle earth by the Valar on the idea that angels assisted in creation.

proverbs 8 says absolutely nothing about Jesus.

Ella S. said:

Logic has its limitations, but that's because it's a process or a methodology. The output of logic is only as good as its inputs.

What logic excels at, and what it was designed for, is discovering truth. In this specific case, Trinitarianism is literally impossible as formally defined by modal logic. Logic is very good at recognizing when something is impossible, because "impossible" is another way of saying "necessarily false." This is the one thing that logic is actually good at.

You're trying to turn logic's one strength and purpose into something it can't do at all. All this demonstrates is that you don't understand or use logic in your thought processes. Which makes them illogical.

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Logic, as you say, is a human construct. A mode of thinking, not a condition of reality.

As a means of navigating a world which is always likely to defy human comprehension, I hope it works for you. Myself, I’m comfortable with paradox, contradiction and ambiguity. There’s no universal mental template, for me, that everything must fit, no set of rules to which everything must align.

In any case, the law of identity is invalidated if we take a Monist rather than Pluralist view of reality, and assert that the universe is a fundamental whole, and the whole has priority over the parts - which are non-local and inseparable. Only if we see the world as comprised of separate, discrete entities operating independently of each other, does it make sense to say a thing is identical to itself. If we take a holistic view, there is a fundamental whole, there are parts of the whole, but there are no whole parts; what we perceive as independent entities, including ourselves, are always incomplete, and only have qualities in relation to the whole.

I think it might have to do with a monotheistic god who wants to create a polytheon. That to say, it isn't clear how far the followers are supposed to ascend, once they graduate from the sound completion of their mortal tasks. God in Christianity compares people to plants that he went to sow, but it isn't clear what they grow into. It could be that they grow into something like minor gods.