Homosexuality and religious.

CG Didymus · Oct 24, 2022

Vinayaka said:
So now we have Jewish, Buddhist, and Hindu adherents objecting. I'm sure there are more. There is another list about non-Bahai's according to Baha'is ... ill, diseased, blind, deaf, and today I add atheist. For a sect that suggests it wants cooperation amongst the people of the earth, they sure seem to be going about it the wrong way.

And there are ways that people of different religions can get along. But it might mean compromising some of their beliefs for the sake of unity. I don't think Baha'is would be allowed to compromise their beliefs. But they probably expect other people to compromise theirs.

Vinayaka · Oct 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
And there are ways that people of different religions can get along. But it might mean compromising some of their beliefs for the sake of unity. I don't think Baha'is would be allowed to compromise their beliefs. But they probably expect other people to compromise theirs.

Well that's been abundantly clear from the outset. They proselytise.

CG Didymus · Oct 24, 2022

Vinayaka said:
I really like the Ahmadiyya community here. They're very friendly people, at least all I've met. They're also strikingly similar to the Baha'i in terms of dates, origin, and all that jazz. They're also very widespread. They also aren't into proselytising at all the way the Baha'i are. There was one particular storekeeper who was such a nice man. Every time I went to his sore for temple supplies, he'd wink and give me a 'discount'.

That's interesting. There was one Baha'i that used to use "By their fruit you shall know them" to show that Baha'is are true because they bear good fruit. So, how is it a religious group that Baha'is say is false is able to bear good fruit? To me, that kind of shows that it doesn't matter so much what a person believes, but if they believe it, and it tells them to love and respect others, and they actually follow and obey the teachings, it can't be all that bad. It's proselytizing and this infallibility thing that is the problem with some religions.

dybmh · Oct 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
How do you know that the 10 commandments came from God?

Are you familiar with the Mt. Sinai event, when the 10 commandments were given? The most compelling evidence that it came from God is that the revelation was witnessed by the entire nation.

Trailblazer said:
How do you know that the Baha'i teachings do not come from God?

Because they allow for worship directed to dead human intercession.

Vinayaka · Oct 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
That's interesting. There was one Baha'i that used to use "By their fruit you shall know them" to show that Baha'is are true because they bear good fruit. So, how is it a religious group that Baha'is say is false is able to bear good fruit? To me, that kind of shows that it doesn't matter so much what a person believes, but if they believe it, and it tells them to love and respect others, and they actually follow and obey the teachings, it can't be all that bad. It's proselytizing and this infallibility thing that is the problem with some religions.

I have a question for you. Since you knew Baha'i in real life, and maybe still do, just how representative do you feel our main three Baha'i folks here are? Yes we have 3 or 4 less participating Baha'i and they do behave differently here. Do you think the average Baha'i in real life is a lot like the 3 who post a lot, or more like the 3 or 4 who don't post much at all, and when they do it's less arrogant?

I'm thinking maybe I'm making some poor conclusions based on the small sample size.

dybmh · Oct 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
That is the story you have from the Old Testament, but how do you know it is true? Can any of it be verified as actual history? Even if it did happen a transgression would not preclude Moses being infallible.

Ok, for Joshua... There is an unbroken oral tradition which attributes a song written by Joshua while leading the siege of Jericho. The song as been preserved in all the denominations in one form or another. It is included in the daily liturgy at the end of each prayer service. This shows that Moses was not leading the Jewish nation during the conquest of the holy land. There's also archeology of "Joshua's Altar" on Mt. Ebal which adds further credibility to the story in the Old Testament.

However, you're saying that even if the story is true it doesn't mean that Moses was infallible. How can someone transgress but still be faultless?

Trailblazer said:
You are free to believe that if you want to but it is not a fact. It is just a belief, a personal opinion. It is also not a fact that Baha'u'llah is infallible, it is a belief. It is not a fact because it can never be proven.

Yes, it actually can, and happened here in this thread. It's the over-reach of transferring infallibility onto the UHJ. If the UHJ is flawed ( refer to their false statement about women's equality in the 1985 "Promise for Peace" ), then whoever assigned them infallibility is also wrong. Basically the UHJ's mistake proved Baha'u'llah's imperfection.

Jedster · Oct 24, 2022

@dybmh
Just a thought.

Could it be that the translator of the version that used Egypt in the Micah verse, confused מָצוֹר֙ with מִצְרָ֑יִם(Egypt)?

2It is a day, and he shall come up to you: those from Assyria and the fortified cities, and from the fortress up to the river and the sea from the west, and the dwellers of the mountain.

יבי֥וֹם הוּא֙ וְעָדֶ֣יךָ יָב֔וֹא לְמִנִּ֥י אַשּׁ֖וּר וְעָרֵ֣י מָצ֑וֹר וּלְמִנִּ֚י מָצוֹר֙ וְעַד־נָהָ֔ר וְיָ֥ם מִיָּ֖ם וְהַ֥ר הָהָֽר:
מִצְרָ֑יִם מִצְרָ֑יִם

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
I don't think Baha'is would be allowed to compromise their beliefs. But they probably expect other people to compromise theirs.

I don't think any religious person will be allowed to compromise their beliefs. But they probably expect other people to compromise theirs.

samtonga43 · Oct 24, 2022

dybmh said:
Ok, for Joshua... There is an unbroken oral tradition which attributes a song written by Joshua while leading the siege of Jericho. The song as been preserved in all the denominations in one form or another. It is included in the daily liturgy at the end of each prayer service. This shows that Moses was not leading the Jewish nation during the conquest of the holy land. There's also archeology of "Joshua's Altar" on Mt. Ebal which adds further credibility to the story in the Old Testament.

However, you're saying that even if the story is true it doesn't mean that Moses was infallible. How can someone transgress but still be faultless?

Yes, it actually can, and happened here in this thread. It's the over-reach of transferring infallibility onto the UHJ. If the UHJ is flawed ( refer to their false statement about women's equality in the 1985 "Promise for Peace" ), then whoever assigned them infallibility is also wrong. Basically the UHJ's mistake proved Baha'u'llah's imperfection.

And surely the very last type of 'messenger' God would send would be one who is less than perfect.

samtonga43 · Oct 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
I don't think any religious person will be allowed to compromise their beliefs. But they probably expect other people to compromise theirs.

Do you expect other people to compromise their beliefs, Tb?

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2022

dybmh said:
Are you familiar with the Mt. Sinai event, when the 10 commandments were given? The most compelling evidence that it came from God is that the revelation was witnessed by the entire nation.

Do you have any proof that the Mt. Sinai event ever took place and was witnessed by the entire nation? No, you do not have any proof. All you have are scriptures that say that something happened.

Since you cannot prove it actually took place all you have is a belief.
Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead because it is written their scriptures.

dybmh said:
Because they allow for worship directed to dead human intercession.

Another belief based upon your beliefs about what kind of worship is allowed by God.

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2022

dybmh said:
However, you're saying that even if the story is true it doesn't mean that Moses was infallible. How can someone transgress but still be faultless?

In The Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah explained how Moses transgressed and why He was still considered by God to be an infallible Messenger of God.

samtonga43 · Oct 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
Do you have any proof that the Mt. Sinai event ever took place and was witnessed by the entire nation? No, you do not have any proof. All you have are scriptures that say that something happened.

Please define 'proof'.

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2022

samtonga43 said:
Do you expect other people to compromise their beliefs, Tb?

I don't expect anyone to compromise their beliefs but there are many on this forum who expect Baha'is to compromise their beliefs in order to appease other religious people.

Sure sounds like a double standard to me.

Trailblazer · Oct 24, 2022

samtonga43 said:
Please define 'proof'.

Proof is a kind of evidence (verifiable evidence) that establishes something as a fact.
Therefore verifiable evidence is proof.

Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true. Verifiable comes from the verb verify, "authenticate" or "prove," from the Old French verifier, "find out the truth about." The Latin root is verus, or "true." Definitions of verifiable.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/verifiable

Something that's verifiable can be proven. In a courtroom, verifiable evidence is backed up with specific proof. If you have a birth certificate, your exact time and place of birth is verifiable — in other words, you can prove where and when you were born.
Verifiable - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

TransmutingSoul · Oct 24, 2022

Vinayaka said:
This is what you said... "I would offer any valid intellectual reason one sees they have to refute Baha'u'llah, would likewise refute all Messengers and also refute God."

How else would somebody interpret that? Please explain.

Every Messenger/Prophet mentioned in the records we have, have one and all, been rejected by the people of the age, who have already stated they beleive in God, the same God that sends all the Messengers.

Thus by rejecting the subsequent Message, that automatically refutes the message given previously to them, that prepares them to accept the next.

It does not mean they are atheists, it means that they have made of God a product of their own image and have rejected the Messenger who comes in the image of God.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Oct 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Yes, why do you reject someone who makes the claim of being a prophet? The important thing is that you do. And how different are those reasons from the reasons people use to reject Baha'u'llah?

Vinayaka said:
I really like the Ahmadiyya community here. They're very friendly people, at least all I've met. They're also strikingly similar to the Baha'i in terms of dates, origin, and all that jazz. They're also very widespread. They also aren't into proselytising at all the way the Baha'i are. There was one particular storekeeper who was such a nice man. Every time I went to his sore for temple supplies, he'd wink and give me a 'discount'.

Just because someone does not past the test of a Prophet, this does not mean that the teachings are entirely incorrect, and the people following those teaching are necessarily bad people.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Oct 24, 2022

Vinayaka said:
I have a question for you. Since you knew Baha'i in real life, and maybe still do, just how representative do you feel our main three Baha'i folks here are? Yes we have 3 or 4 less participating Baha'i and they do behave differently here. Do you think the average Baha'i in real life is a lot like the 3 who post a lot, or more like the 3 or 4 who don't post much at all, and when they do it's less arrogant?

I'm thinking maybe I'm making some poor conclusions based on the small sample size.

Unless a person lives in a big city, the Baha'i communities can be pretty small. A "big" community for a town could be 20 Baha'is. And a community with less than 9 adult Baha'is wouldn't have an LSA. My Baha'i friends were from several small communities that did relatively nothing. Since my friends were young and did a lot of travel teaching. Very few adults from any one community were involved in the teaching. Mainly driving the Baha'i "youth" to places. Then turning them loose on the target area, minority neighborhoods and Indian Reservations were the most common.

That's the Baha'is I hung out with. They were active in the spreading of the Faith, which at that time was supposed to lead to "entry by troops." A lot of them were fairly new Baha'is. So, the main thing they were telling people is that God had sent a new messenger that has come to bring peace and unity. That all people, no matter what color of skin, or from what religion, or from which country... all people were one. Lots of enthusiasm, but not much depth into what Baha'is really believed. And those that did join during these teaching trips were left in a community of Baha'is that didn't know what to do with them.

Lots of the communities that I saw were made up of older Baha'is. They had their feast meetings once every 19 days and that's about it. The better communities had at least one person or family that was very open and charismatic. So, people from other boring communities would go to their "fireside" meetings. Those charismatic Baha'is would give a short talk about the basics of the Baha'is Faith.... Where it came from. How it started and what they believed. These firesides were meant to teach "seekers" about the Faith, but sometimes there were no seekers, just Baha'is. So, then they would do a "deepening" and really get into the Baha'i beliefs.

Every now and again there would be bigger meeting that included a lot of communities. They always had a good speaker and maybe some music or a film. The films were awesome. They showed people of all sorts all smiling and looking so happy. Nothing about any of this was like what is happening here. It was all just the basics, and the "seeker" would be surrounded by people be loving and kind. Usually there were no one there that wasn't open and eager to learn about the Faith.

Now some of the leader of the LSA's, actually most of them, didn't go to these larger meetings. There was nothing there for them. These meetings were aimed at those people interested in the Baha'i Faith. But then there were deepenings. Those could also be in those same communities that had the charismatic Baha'is. And usually an outside person was brought in to lead the deepening.

Then there were the inactive Baha'is. Rarely seen or heard. I was told a native lady was a Baha'i and I said I'd like to meet her. They gave me her address and she was nice to me. But she had nothing nice to say about the other Baha'is in the community. I don't know what Baha'is do now, but back then lots of Baha'is did nothing. Just the feast every 19 days.

I'd say the worst thing I saw was that there was a definitely split between liberal and conservative Baha'is. The liberal ones were the ones going out and teaching, again just the basics. And the conservative, older more knowledgeable Baha'is were on the LSA's. Stll, I liked the Baha'i Faith a lot until my friend became a Christian, then once I read the Bible and NT for the first time, I realized how manipulative and biased the things Baha'is were telling me were.

These Baha'is have been in the Faith a long time. They are not those new, liberal Baha'is that I knew and liked. What bothers me is that after all these years, it doesn't seem like those virtues that are talked about ever really got put into practice. It could be like those Christians that go to Church on Sunday and seem as Holy as Jesus and the Apostles. Then they go home, and they dropped the facade. If we met most of them in person, I'll bet they'd be the nicest people in the world to us. These Baha'is haven't been trained how to teach the Baha'i Faith to people on an internet forum. The threads they start are much too controversial. So, what can they do but try and support the beliefs of their religion.

Those firesides and other meetings would be like them starting a thread in the "seeker" section and let those that were interested come to them. Anyway, I hope some of that helps.

CG Didymus · Oct 24, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Just because someone does not past the test of a Prophet, this does not mean that the teachings are entirely incorrect, and the people following those teaching are necessarily bad people.

Regards Tony

Yes, you're a nice guy, but that doesn't mean what you believe is true. There's nice Catholics, Jews, Muslims, JW's, Mormons and even some Atheists. Can we be united without having to make claims about one religion being better or newer or that it's replacing the others? That's only going to get people to argue against you. Religions you think are outdated and false are creating good people. How is that possible? Do we need to convince them how wrong they are? That the Baha'i Faith has to be believed for peace and unity to happen?

Vinayaka · Oct 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Unless a person lives in a big city, the Baha'i communities can be pretty small. A "big" community for a town could be 20 Baha'is. And a community with less than 9 adult Baha'is wouldn't have an LSA. My Baha'i friends were from several small communities that did relatively nothing. Since my friends were young and did a lot of travel teaching. Very few adults from any one community were involved in the teaching. Mainly driving the Baha'i "youth" to places. TheIndian Reservations were the most common.

n turning them loose on the target area, minority neighborhoods and
That's the Baha'is I hung out with. They were active in the spreading of the Faith, which at that time was supposed to lead to "entry by troops." A lot of them were fairly new Baha'is. So, the main thing they were telling people is that God had sent a new messenger that has come to bring peace and unity. That all people, no matter what color of skin, or from what religion, or from which country... all people were one. Lots of enthusiasm, but not much depth into what Baha'is really believed. And those that did join during these teaching trips were left in a community of Baha'is that didn't know what to do with them.

Lots of the communities that I saw were made up of older Baha'is. They had their feast meetings once every 19 days and that's about it. The better communities had at least one person or family that was very open and charismatic. So, people from other boring communities would go to their "fireside" meetings. Those charismatic Baha'is would give a short talk about the basics of the Baha'is Faith.... Where it came from. How it started and what they believed. These firesides were meant to teach "seekers" about the Faith, but sometimes there were no seekers, just Baha'is. So, then they would do a "deepening" and really get into the Baha'i beliefs.

Every now and again there would be bigger meeting that included a lot of communities. They always had a good speaker and maybe some music or a film. The films were awesome. They showed people of all sorts all smiling and looking so happy. Nothing about any of this was like what is happening here. It was all just the basics, and the "seeker" would be surrounded by people be loving and kind. Usually there were no one there that wasn't open and eager to learn about the Faith.

Now some of the leader of the LSA's, actually most of them, didn't go to these larger meetings. There was nothing there for them. These meetings were aimed at those people interested in the Baha'i Faith. But then there were deepenings. Those could also be in those same communities that had the charismatic Baha'is. And usually an outside person was brought in to lead the deepening.

Then there were the inactive Baha'is. Rarely seen or heard. I was told a native lady was a Baha'i and I said I'd like to meet her. They gave me her address and she was nice to me. But she had nothing nice to say about the other Baha'is in the community. I don't know what Baha'is do now, but back then lots of Baha'is did nothing. Just the feast every 19 days.

I'd say the worst thing I saw was that there was a definitely split between liberal and conservative Baha'is. The liberal ones were the ones going out and teaching, again just the basics. And the conservative, older more knowledgeable Baha'is were on the LSA's. Stll, I liked the Baha'i Faith a lot until my friend became a Christian, then once I read the Bible and NT for the first time, I realized how manipulative and biased the things Baha'is were telling me were.

These Baha'is have been in the Faith a long time. They are not those new, liberal Baha'is that I knew and liked. What bothers me is that after all these years, it doesn't seem like those virtues that are talked about ever really got put into practice. It could be like those Christians that go to Church on Sunday and seem as Holy as Jesus and the Apostles. Then they go home, and they dropped the facade. If we met most of them in person, I'll bet they'd be the nicest people in the world to us. These Baha'is haven't been trained how to teach the Baha'i Faith to people on an internet forum. The threads they start are much too controversial. So, what can they do but try and support the beliefs of their religion.

Those firesides and other meetings would be like them starting a thread in the "seeker" section and let those that were interested come to them. Anyway, I hope some of that helps.

That helps some. It seems I am probably wrong to assume the interactions here are the norm. That suggests a greater tolerance for me and from me that I am getting here. The Baha'is who say very little here are doing much better at promoting their faith than the vocal ones, I'm afraid. No message is better than an arrogant one full of contradictions. Thanks. About time for me to take another 6 month break.

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