"Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

e.r.m. · May 7, 2022

Part 1

InChrist said:
I am not sure how some of the verses you listed, such as John 21:19-22 or Hebrews 9:16-18 have any application to or support the necessity of baptism for salvation.

I explained John 21:19-22, please re-read.
There are things like critical thinking, exegesis, hermenuetics, which help scrutinize whether one's current belief is valid as opposed to just what they have bought into. Hebrews 9:16-18 relates to the timing of the thief on the cross and when the New Covenant and great commission, including baptism, Mark 16:16, came into effect. Luke 5:24 has to do with the authority Jesus had to override the requirements of the old covenant while it was still in effect.

What do you think?

The churches I have attended teach the Bible expository style, meaning the pastor goes through one book, verse by verse, teaching in context. By doing this form of study, rather than topical, verses are not pulled out of their context here and there to create aberrant doctrines.

That's a good style and gets at a lot of good truths. I've done that. But this style also has its limitations. Sometimes Jesus addresses things that have bearing on things he says or does much later. Luke 5:24 for example.

Have you received any responses from others with the thief on the cross? And if so, what did they say?

If you do not believe that baptism is connected to regeneration or the moment one is born again to new life in Christ, then what exactly do you believe? I don’t find your posts very clear.

Ok, I do believe that baptism is connected to regeneration or the moment one is born again to new life in Christ. I do not believe baptism itself does the regeneration (which is what baptismal regeneration means), but that after God sees the response He expressed the expectation for Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38-39 Romans 10:9-10 belief & repentance & confessing with her mouth the Lord Jesus & baptism in Jesus's name, that God does the regenerating. It's all there. Do you understand the difference between baptismal regeneration and what I believe?

All I know is that I was saved by Jesus Christ out of religion: Catholicism, Mormonism, another deviant cult group, new age and the occult...saved and delivered from darkness the moment I believed and trusted Jesus as my Savior...
(He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14).
I knew I was different, everything about life was new and different
(1 John 5:13;20).
Not only me, my husband was saved and born again the same day, at home alone, by Christ alone. No church, no pastor. Two weeks later, after much prayer, we shared our new faith in Jesus with a former friend who had become an enemy. We were not actually on speaking terms, but God opened an opportunity. Three days later he came by our house, walked in and started crying as he told us he had trusted Jesus as his Savior for forgiveness and eternal life.
Later we did start going to a Bible church and shared what happened with the pastor. We were baptized, over 2 months afterwards. Our former enemy, now friend again and brother in Christ was also baptized at the same time. Would you say we were not really saved or born again until we were baptized, over two months after trusting Jesus as our Savior?

It doesn't matter what I say. It matters what the Bible says. Experience is important, but does experience come first, or does God's word come first?
I'm glad to hear of your friend who had become an enemy and had become your friend again and turned to God.
The Bible is not the enemy. I have heard the "I know what the Bible says, but I personally believe... because I can't believe God..." line. Making the Bible look like it's the villain, only because they had not initially been taught about God from the Bible. Unfortunately, we do not have the Apostle's still with us in person. We know of the benevolent, gracious, and just God and how to be saved through "the Bible". Either the person who taught us presented the Bible accurately or mirepresented the Bible, which formed the basis of how we would perceive the Bible and God in the future. People can be more than convinced of their belief as true despite not existing anywhere in the Bible (such as baptism in Jesus's name being a public declaration of an inward transformation, or infant baptism). I saw on TV this guy saying that he believes with all his heart that Joseph Smith received said message from the angels. You could see by the look on his face that he was completely sold on it. That level of conviction, on any teaching, is not the barometer of truth. The Bible is, and God of "the Bible", is more loving than a misrepresented God, because God of the Bible is real.

What do you think?

e.r.m. · May 7, 2022

Part 2

InChrist said:
“When Paul reminded the Corinthians of the essential ingredients of the gospel which he preached and by which they had been saved, he made no mention of baptism (1 Cor:15:1-4). In fact, he distinguished between the gospel and baptism: "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor:1:17). He hadn't baptized most of the Corinthians, couldn't remember whom he had baptized, and was thankful that it had been very few (1 Cor:1:14-16)—a strange attitude if baptism is essential to salvation! Yet without baptizing them, Paul declared that he was their father in the faith: "in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"
(1 Cor:4:15).

Did you read my responses to these in my previous posts? Please re-read and respond.

Then what about Mark:16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"? All who believe the gospel are saved, so of course all who believe and are baptized are saved; but that does not say that baptism saves or that it is essential for salvation. Scores of verses declare, with no mention of baptism, that salvation comes by believing the gospel: "t pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor:1:21; see also Jn:3:16,18,36; 5:24; Acts:10:43; 13:38-39; 16:31; Rom:1:16; 3:28; 4:24; 5:1; 1 Cor.:15:1-4; Eph:2:8, etc.). Not one verse, however, says that baptism saves. Numerous verses declare that whosoever does not believe is lost, but not one verse declares that whosoever is not baptized is lost. Surely the Bible would make it clear that believing in Christ without being baptized cannot save if that were the case, yet it never says so!

Before I answer this, I had stated earlier
"It is not contrary to any written text in the Bible. It is contrary to the commentaries about and additions to the scriptures by the "by grace alone, through faith alone" community, such as adding "alone" to John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-10. You are welcome to look for any written text in the New Testament that itself states (and not just alludes to in the eye of the beholder) something in opposition to what I have espoused in my posts."

What do you think of my point that my beliefs that we've been discussing are not in contradiction with anything in the text of the Bible, but rather with the commentary surrounding them?

Would you also answer what I asked before and which applies above?
Do you think citing some scriptures, as you did here, that don't mention baptism, can erase the scriptures that do?

Instead, we have examples of those who believed and were saved without being baptized, such as the thief on the cross and the Old Testament saints (Enoch, Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, et al.), to whom Christian baptism was unknown.”

Again, is this the first time you've asked these questions, and what responses have you received if you have asked them of others before?

What do you think of the timing of the command to be baptized in Jesus's name to be saved Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-39 not happening until after the thief died?

“Similarly, Peter says that baptism now saves us. You see, Jesus was saved. The Father took him out of Hell. "And," Peter says, "corresponding to that, baptism now saves you . . . " This is not a reference to the rite of water baptism. "Baptized" means "placed into."

You said it yourself, “Similarly, Peter says that baptism now saves us."

Water baptism is a symbol of being placed into Christ -- into his death, burial, and resurrection. Peter says that the reality of this symbol is our identification with Christ.

Did Peter say that baptism symbolizes something, or did Peter say that baptism is symbolized by something else? What you quoted that Peter said baptism does do is
"Peter says that baptism now saves us."

When we trust him as our Lord and Savior, we are placed into his death, his burial, his resurrection, and we ascend with him so that we are "seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus,"

What is your response to what I had stated before?:

It doesn't matter if we believe it or not. What matters is what the Bible says about it. The Bible, in a number of places, includes baptism as a part of being saved Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-39, 22:16, Romans 6:4, 1 Peter 3:21, etc. The Bible says a person is saved by faith/belief in Jesus Christ. The Bible does not say that a person is saved only by their faith/belief in Jesus Christ.

Because, you see, dead men have severed their ties with the past. Sin cannot dominate them. Peter says that baptism, our identification with Christ, causes us to go through precisely what Christ went through, and we are raised - as he was raised, to a brand-new life.”

Where did Peter say identification?

e.r.m. · May 7, 2022

InChrist said:
So are saying you believe in baptismal regeneration? Do you believe that a person is not saved by faith/ belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior, but that they must be baptized to actually have salvation?

If baptism is required for salvation why did Paul say this...

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1 Corinthians 1:14-17

Why did the great Apostle Paul who preached the Gospel everywhere he went, baptize so few, if baptism is necessary for salvation?

I don’t see any examples in the scriptures of Jesus baptizing anyone, at all. Though He did say...

...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:15

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

..Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:47

You didn't address the passage Acts 22:16
You asked
Do you believe that a person is not saved by faith/ belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior, but that they must be baptized to actually have salvation?

Isn't that what Acts 22:16 said, since Saul had believed in and confessed the Lord Jesus Acts 22:8-10, but was still being told to be baptized for the purpose of having his sins washed away? Acts 22:16

Truth in love · Jun 5, 2022

CrochetOverCoffee said:
After Peter delivered his first sermon to those gathered for the celebration of Pentecost in Jerusalem, convicting them of the murder of Jesus and convincing them that He was the Messiah, they asked him this question (Acts 2:37). He then tells them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38) Why then do so many deny that either repentance or baptism are requirements of salvation? (Scripture quoted from NKJV.)

Been asking this for years. The Bible list over 20 things to do for salvation.

metis · Jun 6, 2022

Truth in love said:
Been asking this for years. The Bible list over 20 things to do for salvation.

Only two:
Matt.22[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Truth in love · Jun 6, 2022

metis said:
Only two:
Matt.22[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Those are important, and I don't think the prophets and apostles wasted their time when they wrote. One could argue that these are subsets of the above, but I don't think we can neglect them.

Baptism Acts 11:14 and 10:48 mark 16:16 1 Peter 3:21

Belief mark 16:16, Luke 8:12, acts 16:31, heb 10:39

Believe and confess Rom 10:9

Call on the Lord Acts 2:21 acts 4:12 Rom 10:13

Can be neglected Hebrew 2:3

Christ Luke 19:10 John 3:17 John 10:9

Continue in doctrine 1 Tim 4:16

Enduring Matt 24:13 mark 13:13

Faith Luke 7:50 eph 2:8

Faith and works James 2:14 Phip 2:12

Grace Act 11:15 eph 2:8

Gospel 1 Cor 14:1-2

Hope Rom 8:24

Knowledge of the truth 1 Tim 2:4

Lose our life Luke 9:24

Love of the truth 2 Thes 2:10

Not just seeking Luke 13:24

Not works, washings and mercy Titus 3:5

Prayer Philip 1:19

Repentance 2 cor 7:10

Righteous 1 Peter 4:18

metis · Jun 6, 2022

Truth in love said:
Those are important, and I don't think the prophets and apostles wasted their time when they wrote. One could argue that these are subsets of the above, but I don't think we can neglect them.

So, it doesn't say what it says?

On these two basic teachings rest the entire Gospel with its clarifications and applications.

Truth in love · Jun 11, 2022

metis said:
So, it doesn't say what it says?

On these two basic teachings rest the entire Gospel with its clarifications and applications.

Do you really try to misunderstand what I write?
The Bible lists many items under being saved kingdom of heaven etc. which of these is in error?

Muffled · Jun 13, 2022

e.r.m. said:
Would he have to? Why would somebody go looking for another way after he has stated how? And didn't he say this is for everybody from now on?
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

I believe the reason is that Peter is preaching not making a law or commandment.

metis · Jun 13, 2022

Truth in love said:
Do you really try to misunderstand what I write?
The Bible lists many items under being saved kingdom of heaven etc. which of these is in error?

So, Jesus was wrong about just his Two Commandments? If that's what you believe, that's your choice.

What you don't seem to understand is that such other verses like you posted are elaborations and/or applications of Jesus' rather clearly stated Two Commandments. If one understands Jewish Law and what Jesus did in regards to that, then it all becomes quite clear.

Truth in love · Jun 13, 2022

metis said:
So, Jesus was wrong about just his Two Commandments? If that's what you believe, that's your choice.

What you don't seem to understand is that such other verses like you posted are elaborations and/or applications of Jesus' rather clearly stated Two Commandments. If one understands Jewish Law and what Jesus did in regards to that, then it all becomes quite clear.

Seem you are trying to misunderstand what I'm saying. The two great commandments are vital. I never said otherwise.

"Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

e.r.m.

Church of Christ

e.r.m.

Church of Christ

e.r.m.

Church of Christ

Truth in love

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Truth in love

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Truth in love

Well-Known Member

Muffled

Jesus in me

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Truth in love

Well-Known Member