IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
the messiah has not come "the first time" or "this time." We are still awaiting him.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Why do Jehovah's Witnesses change the meaning of John 10:17-18?From the kings james one?
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
cataway
Well-Known Member
yeah .....go with that
cataway
Well-Known Member
this messiah you have hope in ,where does he come from ? he is evidently a man . right ?
Brian2
Veteran Member
Well I suppose if you believe Higher Criticism on the Pentateuch then you would also believe it about the gospels even if it brings in secular presumptions.
The internal evidence however has Luke written in the 50s and Mark earlier than Luke.
The promise of Jesus is that God's Spirit would remind them of what He had said.
But of course the stories would have been told by speaking also.
nPeace
Veteran Member
The question is "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"
The focus (subject) is not the dead body, but the dead (person).... and their being raised.
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
What dies? The body, or the person?
It is sown a natural body. It is raised a spiritual body.
What is sown? Not the body, but the person. The person dies - is sown a natural body. Yes, they die [in] a natural body. They are quickened (raised) [in] a spiritual body.
The focus (subject) is the person, and their being raised.
My insertion are to simplify the reading, for you.
I know why this is hard for you to accept - not understand, because I think you are able to understand... if you wanted to, but understanding is not your interest here.
Holding your belief is.
Here again.
What is it in verses 42-44?
Tell me again... the body, right?
Let's read it.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Continue...
You do know how to read Brian. No question. You did Comprehension and Grammar at school, I hope.
"It" refers to what? What's the subject Paul alludes to? The dead. Yes.
Thus, we read...
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. the dead [person] is sown in corruption; the dead [person] is raised in incorruption:
43 The dead [person] is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; the dead [person] is raised in power:
44 The dead [person] is sown a natural body; the dead [person] is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
This has everything to do with the Bible. Not some man-made teaching.
You just don't like the the GB of JWs got it right, and you didn't
You'll get over it... I hope. For your sake, Brian.
Last edited:
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes he is an ordinary man born the ordinary way, human and flawed.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Let me ask you a question, please. I'm guessing you do not believe the gospel accounts about Jesus, would you say that is true?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That is correct. I think a historical Jesus existed, but the gospel accounts combine history with myth and legend, often attributing to Jesus things he did not say or do.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK, maybe we can talk about this later -- it's getting late -- eyes are getting sleepy. Must "lie down."
And I hope to get up tomorrow a bit refreshed. Take care.
Brian2
Veteran Member
As you point out, the 2 questions are actually one question. The answer given by Paul does not tell us "how" someone is raised from the dead but it tells us what sort of body they will have.
"It is sown a natural body. It is raised a spiritual body." That is speaking of the the natural body which is buried. I know you can see that.
Even if you say, as you did ""The person dies--is sown a natural body. Yes, they die [in]a natural body. They are quickened (raised) [in] a spiritual body"" it means the say thing, and is speaking about the sort of body a person has now compared to the sort of body they will have at the resurrection.
Since I can agree with what you write, why do we have the problems we are having.
It seems that you are thinking that a "spiritual" body is a spirit. But when we look at the uses of the word "spiritual" in the New Testament we can see that it does not mean "spirit".
Yes I can agree that it is speaking about the dead person. And it is answering the question about the sort of body the dead person has when resurrected.
Do we agree then about what the passage is saying. We should if I can agree with what you are saying. So tell me if can agree why do we disagree? Make it simple, I find things hard to understand.
Do you want to discuss the meaning of "spiritual"?
Do you want to discuss verses 50 to 54.
1Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
Instead of waffling about in things we probably agree on we should probably get to the things we don't agree on.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Why we are having the problem Brian, is because you are saying the dead body is raised, and changed, which is not the same thing I , nor Paul, is saying.
The person is given a body.
God gives the person a body... as it pleases him.
Seems to me you are now trying to shift away to what body the person is given, in order to argue about that, but that will go nowhere, since we haven't gotten anywhere regarding those who died in the past, and who goes to heaven, or if people are resurrected to earth... etc.
So, I will only be wasting my time arguing.
I only went at you with this one because I knew it was impossible for you to argue through this,.
So have you changed your mind, or do you still think the dead body is changed?
What is it that God gives a body... the body, or the person he raises to life?
(1 Corinthians 15:38) . . .but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
cataway
Well-Known Member
with such a description are you that long awaited messiah ?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
No, this ordinary man must also fulfill every last one of the messianic prophecies. I don't. In fact, no one in history has yet.
What does the original Greek text say in John 10:17,18 and how can or should it be translated? Let's see (this is one way I can translate it myself):
17 δια τουτο _ Because of this
ο πατηρ _ the Father
με αγαπα _ loves me:
οτι εγω τιθημι _ because I give away (surrend, lay down)
την ψυχην μου _ the life of mine,
ινα παλιν _ for again
λαβω αυτην _ I (will) get it.
18 ουδεις _ No one
αιρει αυτην _ take it
απ εμου _ from me
αλλ εγω _ but I
τιθημι αυτην _ surrender (give away) it
απ εμαυτου _ by myself;
εξουσιαν εχω _ Authority I have
θειναι αυτην _ to give it away
και εξουσιαν εχω _ and authority I have
παλιν λαβειν αυτην _ to get it again (back).
ταυτην την εντολην _ This intruction
ελαβον _ I received
παρα του πατρος μου _ from the Father of mine.
The way I understand it: Jesus says that he has permission to let his life be taken, because he was given that instruction. The Father told him that it had to be this way, but that later he would give it back to him.
If Jesus had not allowed it, no one could have taken his life; instead of hiding and fleing he surrended himself knowing they would kill him ... and if he had not been instructed to let himself be killed, it would have been a voluntary suicide, something contrary to the will of God.
17 δια τουτο _ Because of this
ο πατηρ _ the Father
με αγαπα _ loves me:
οτι εγω τιθημι _ because I give away (surrend, lay down)
την ψυχην μου _ the life of mine,
ινα παλιν _ for again
λαβω αυτην _ I (will) get it.
18 ουδεις _ No one
αιρει αυτην _ take it
απ εμου _ from me
αλλ εγω _ but I
τιθημι αυτην _ surrender (give away) it
απ εμαυτου _ by myself;
εξουσιαν εχω _ Authority I have
θειναι αυτην _ to give it away
και εξουσιαν εχω _ and authority I have
παλιν λαβειν αυτην _ to get it again (back).
ταυτην την εντολην _ This intruction
ελαβον _ I received
παρα του πατρος μου _ from the Father of mine.
The way I understand it: Jesus says that he has permission to let his life be taken, because he was given that instruction. The Father told him that it had to be this way, but that later he would give it back to him.
If Jesus had not allowed it, no one could have taken his life; instead of hiding and fleing he surrended himself knowing they would kill him ... and if he had not been instructed to let himself be killed, it would have been a voluntary suicide, something contrary to the will of God.
cataway
Well-Known Member
i assume that you have read some if not all that is written about Jesus. which of the messianic prophecies did Jesus not fulfill ?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Here's just a sampling:
1. The messiah will usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. Jesus didn't.
2. The messiah will bring all Jews back to the land of Israel. Jesus didn't.
3. The messiah will rule from Jerusalem. Jesus didn't.
Gezellig
Member
I like the kjv better.Because it looks like Jesus was alive in spirit form when he died.While the Jehovah's Witness doesn't.But that is just me.
Jesus was alive in spirit form when he died.
Alive or dead?
Let's say he somehow stayed alive, even though he died. Sorry, I do not know how to describe this situation in other words. The question arises - why does he not tell anything about these days, when his physical body died, what he was like then?
Why didn't Lazarus tell about the 4 days when he was dead after the resurrection?
Maybe because these poems were written earlier?
"The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing...".
"Do everything you can do, because in Sheol, where you will go, there is no action, no understanding, no wisdom, no knowledge." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
The Scripture says in 1 Pet. 3:18:
θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ _ put to death in the flesh
ζωοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι _ made alive in the spirit
Life, whether physical in the human way or spiritual in the way of angels, is one and the same thing. Jesus could not have DIED in any other sense than having been VIVIFIED, meaning conscious existence.
How do we know that this refers to his physical death and his spiritual resurrection? Because he never died in the spiritual sense as if he had been disobedient to God or something, so he would never have been "vivified" again in that sense.
He only had one life before his death and he only has one life after his resurrection. He lost his life at the time of his death and it was returned to him at the time of his resurrection as a spirit form of life as he had been before being born as a human.
θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ _ put to death in the flesh
ζωοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι _ made alive in the spirit
Life, whether physical in the human way or spiritual in the way of angels, is one and the same thing. Jesus could not have DIED in any other sense than having been VIVIFIED, meaning conscious existence.
How do we know that this refers to his physical death and his spiritual resurrection? Because he never died in the spiritual sense as if he had been disobedient to God or something, so he would never have been "vivified" again in that sense.
He only had one life before his death and he only has one life after his resurrection. He lost his life at the time of his death and it was returned to him at the time of his resurrection as a spirit form of life as he had been before being born as a human.
cataway
Well-Known Member
perhaps you can show the scriptures that you allude to please
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Let's focus in on one of the three so that the post doesn't get too long.
Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Jesus did not do this.