If nobody accused

loverofhumanity said:

Yes most definitely. The ‘New Name’ spoken of in Revelation is ‘the Glory of God’. That is a direct translation of the Name Baha’u’llah.

Click to expand...

No, Christ's return will not be hidden - you are misinterpreting Scripture in an extremely audacious manner.

Trailblazer said:

I am not claiming that God hid everything, only that the meanings of some verses in the Bible were not fully understood. What do you think Daniel meant in Chapter 12?

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I am not trying to either diminish or compromise the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice, quite the contrary. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things...... Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

No, Baha'u'llah did not die for the sins of humanity since that was the mission of Jesus and it was already accomplished when He died on the cross. The mission of Baha'u'llah was to usher in the kingdom of God on earth.

How do you know what kind of life Baha'u'llah led? You cannot really know what kind of life Jesus led. The New Testament authors did not know Jesus and whatever we have was passed down by oral tradition and recorded decades later. You trust that it is correct but that is a matter of faith, not a matter of fact. By contrast, we have accurate historical records of the life of Baha'u'llah chronicled by those who knew Him..

Do you know that what later became Christianity was considered a cult when Jesus walked the earth? When Jesus walked the earth and for many years after that only a few recognized Him.

“When Christ appeared He manifested Himself at Jerusalem. He called men to the Kingdom of God, He invited them to Eternal Life and He told them to acquire human perfections. The Light of Guidance was shed forth by that radiant Star, and He at length gave His life in sacrifice for humanity.

All through His blessed life He suffered oppression and hardship, and in spite of all this humanity was His enemy!

They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He was not treated like a man—and yet in spite of all this He was the embodiment of pity and of supreme goodness and love……..

It was not until many years after His ascension that they knew who He was, and at the time of His ascension He had only a very few disciples; only a comparatively small following believed His precepts and followed His laws. The ignorant said, ‘Who is this individual; He has only a few disciples!’ But those who knew said: ‘He is the Sun who will shine in the East and in the West, He is the Manifestation who shall give life to the world’.

What the first disciples had seen the world realized later.” Paris Talks, pp, 116-117

The same thing happened to Baha'u'llah as had happened to Jesus. They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He had only a few disciples and the Baha'i Faith grew slowly just as Christianity had grown.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The Truth is never obvious to everyone. In fact, few people find it, especially in the beginning. The same was true when Jesus first walked the earth.

Click to expand...

I haven't a clue why you revere Bahá’u’lláh to such a degree, how you have the audacity to compromise Christ's eminence with that of another representative of God - the alleged returned Christ.
It appeared that there were only a few Christians shortly after the ascension of Jesus, approx 120. But on the day of Pentecost (43+- days later), the Church grew extremely rapidly, both in size and geographical dispersion. By 380 ad, it was the largest nation's at the time, state religion, and shortly after that, the largest religion in the world, which it still arguably is, today.
You have forced your eisegesis on the text, to the point that your facts are not correct. Christianity spread like wildfire, even under severe persecution.
Although the Romans erroneously perceived Christianity as a cult, this fallacy was quickly dispelled within a century or two, and again, it's ever enlarging movement has lasted unto this day.
The discretion that you ascribe to Christianity , is not a valid predicate.

Trailblazer said:

No, Baha'u'llah usurped nothing. Jesus was the Messiah, but not the only Messiah, and Jesus was never slated to be the Messiah of the latter days since Jesus never planned or promised to return to earth.

You cannot make the verses that have already been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah be about Jesus unless you can alter history and geography.

If you think I have not heard this before think again. All Christians say the same things. All wait for the same man Jesus to return from the clouds but sadly they are waiting for nothing since Jesus is never going to return to earth because He has no more work to do on earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Click to expand...

Trailblazer, you have taken every passage out of context.
I'm sorry, i do not subscribe to what you are professing, you have not grasped the over-arching Gospel of Christ - the chosen one before the beginning of time - absolutely no one but Jesus of Nazareth, will come in his own name, the only name by which men will be saved.

DNB said:

No, Christ's return will not be hidden - you are misinterpreting Scripture in an extremely audacious manner.

Click to expand...

Believe whatever you want to believe, just realize it is not in accordance with Scripture.

The New Testament warns to be looking for the return of Christ so we will not miss Him. If Jesus was going to come barreling down from the clouds for all to see, as Christians believe, why would we have to be so careful to be watching?

If it is going to be such a huge event, why does the Jesus say that we should be watching, lest we miss the event?

When a thief breaks into the house at night, he comes in and goes out quietly, such that nobody even notices him... It is only in the morning that the homeowner realizes that he has been there because of the telltale signs he left behind.

Baha’u’llah came like a thief in the night and the Christians who were not watching missed the event.

Revelation 3:2-3 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Luke 12:39-40 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Matthew 24:42-44 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Mark 13:32-37 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

DNB said:

I haven't a clue why you revere Bahá’u’lláh to such a degree, how you have the audacity to compromise Christ's eminence with that of another representative of God - the alleged returned Christ.

Click to expand...

For one reason, because Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Thief in the Night by William Sears

For another thing, it makes absolutely no logical sense that one religion, namely Christianity, would be the only true religion because that would mean that that two-thirds of the people in the world are all wrong in their religious beliefs, including all the Muslims who comprise 24% of the world population. Christianity is an untenable belief for anyone who believes that God is loving and merciful and just, because God would not send two-thirds of the people in the world to hell if He was. I cannot make this work in my mind and that is why I am a Baha'i and could never be a Christian.

Christians are not satisfied that Baha'u'llah revered Jesus and elevated Jesus to a station no pen can depict. They have to have Jesus as the Only Way, but He was not the Only Way for all time.

DNB said:

Trailblazer, you have taken every passage out of context.

Click to expand...

I am sorry that you cannot face the reality that Jesus is never going to return to earth.
Just like every Christian, you will find a way to misinterpret Scripture so you can continue believing that Jesus is going to return. You will not know the truth till you die and see Jesus in heaven.

Nobody gave you any authority to interpret Scripture, least of all Jesus.

Trailblazer said:

Believe whatever you want to believe, just realize it is not in accordance with Scripture.

The New Testament warns to be looking for the return of Christ so we will not miss Him. If Jesus was going to come barreling down from the clouds for all to see, as Christians believe, why would we have to be so careful to be watching?

If it is going to be such a huge event, why does the Jesus say that we should be watching, lest we miss the event?

When a thief breaks into the house at night, he comes in and goes out quietly, such that nobody even notices him... It is only in the morning that the homeowner realizes that he has been there because of the telltale signs he left behind.

Baha’u’llah came like a thief in the night and the Christians who were not watching missed the event.

Revelation 3:2-3 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Luke 12:39-40 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Matthew 24:42-44 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

2 Peter 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Mark 13:32-37 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Click to expand...

Jesus was not saying 'be careful so that you don't miss it'. But rather, 'be careful that you're not caught off-guard or unprepared when it occurs '.

Trailblazer said:

For one reason, because Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Thief in the Night by William Sears

For another thing, it makes absolutely no logical sense that one religion, namely Christianity, would be the only true religion because that would mean that that two-thirds of the people in the world are all wrong in their religious beliefs, including all the Muslims who comprise 24% of the world population. Christianity is an untenable belief for anyone who believes that God is loving and merciful and just, because God would not send two-thirds of the people in the world to hell if He was. I cannot make this work in my mind and that is why I am a Baha'i and could never be a Christian.

Christians are not satisfied that Baha'u'llah revered Jesus and elevated Jesus to a station no pen can depict. They have to have Jesus as the Only Way, but He was not the Only Way for all time.

Click to expand...

All roads do not lead to Rome - as far as God's will is concerned.
It is not that only one religion or denomination will be saved, it is that God is not frivolous or complacent with His demands for righteousness and means of grace. We cannot assume where God will apply clemency, and to whom and on what grounds that He won't. He gave His Word, Jesus did not die in vain, therefore there is only one way to attain to God's approbation.
This is elementary reasoning, based on knowing that God is serious and expects complete obedience from man. Therefore, both Mohammad and Jesus cannot be God's will, nor Siddhartha or Confucius, etc..

Trailblazer said:

I am sorry that you cannot face the reality that Jesus is never going to return to earth.
Just like every Christian, you will find a way to misinterpret Scripture so you can continue believing that Jesus is going to return. You will not know the truth till you die and see Jesus in heaven.

Nobody gave you any authority to interpret Scripture, least of all Jesus.

Click to expand...

Jesus gave every man on earth the right, and the obligation to interpret Scripture, and to denounce those who misinterpret it. Just as a parent's or general's orders are not meant to be open to interpretation from their subordinates.

DNB said:

Jesus was not saying 'be careful so that you don't miss it'. But rather, 'be careful that you're not caught off-guard or unprepared when it occurs '.

Click to expand...

What's the difference?

DNB said:

All roads do not lead to Rome - as far as God's will is concerned.

Click to expand...

You do not speak for God, but you seem to think you do.

DNB said:

This is elementary reasoning, based on knowing that God is serious and expects complete obedience from man. Therefore, both Mohammad and Jesus cannot be God's will, nor Siddhartha or Confucius, etc.

Click to expand...

This is elementary reasoning. Christianity cannot be right because they reject Muhammad who was a Messenger of God.

Muhammad and Jesus were both be Messengers of God and so was the Buddha. Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues but he was not a Messenger of God.

DNB said:

Jesus gave every man on earth the right, and the obligation to interpret Scripture, and to denounce those who misinterpret it.

Click to expand...

And how do YOU know who is misinterpreting it?

Trailblazer said:

What's the difference?

Click to expand...

The latter will not elude you, but condemn you.

Trailblazer said:

You do not speak for God, but you seem to think you do.

This is elementary reasoning. Christianity cannot be right because they reject Muhammad who was a Messenger of God.

Muhammad and Jesus were both be Messengers of God and so was the Buddha. Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues but he was not a Messenger of God.

Click to expand...

Your speaking the rhetoric of a polytheist. How is it that you cannot discern the fundamental incompatibilities between the religions that you mentioned?
Just for starters, one of the most critical tenets of the Christian faith is that Christ died, and yet the Muslims categorically reject this notion. Therefore, how can you regard them all as abiding by God's will?

Trailblazer said:

And how do YOU know who is misinterpreting it?

Click to expand...

The Bible and wisdom, obviously.

DNB said:

The latter will not elude you, but condemn you.

Click to expand...

If you're not caught off-guard or unprepared when it occurs why will that condemn you?
If you miss the return of Christ, that will not condemn you?

DNB said:

Your speaking the rhetoric of a polytheist. How is it that you cannot discern the fundamental incompatibilities between the religions that you mentioned?

Click to expand...

It does not matter that the religions were different. The reason they were different is because the people to whom they were revealed and the times in which they were revealed were different.

Speaking of all the religions collectively, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings, pp. 287-288

He also wrote that every age has its own problems so God prescribes a different remedy for mankind in every age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213

DNB said:

Just for starters, one of the most critical tenets of the Christian faith is that Christ died, and yet the Muslims categorically reject this notion. Therefore, how can you regard them all as abiding by God's will?

Click to expand...

The Muslims misinterpreted the Qur'an so the Muslims hold a false belief about the crucifixion of Christ. This is no reflection upon Muhammad and what is in the Qur'an. The link below explains what Baha'is believe the verse in the Qur'an really means.

Qur’an 4:157

And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Do Baha’is believe Christ was crucified?

Abdul Bahá calls him a martyr, in Some Answered Questions, but also the Quran states that Jesus wasn’t crucified and rather made to look like he was. What is the official Baha’i view, and if it isn’t compatible with the Quran, why not?

Hope this helps you in your spiritual quest.

"Though we cannot imagine exactly what the Manifestations of the remote past were like, we can be sure of two things: They must have been able to reach their fellow-men in a normal manner-as Baháu'lláh reached His generation, and They were sent from God and thus Divine Beings. The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 14, 1943)

Here's another related passage

"Regarding your question relative to Surih 4, 156 of the 'Quran' in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ, but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the divine reality in Him."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938)

https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/ddig8d/do_bahais_believe_christ_was_crucified/

DNB said:

The Bible and wisdom, obviously.

Click to expand...

No, that is not obvious.
People reading the Bible interpret it differently. How do you know which interpretation is correct?
How do you know that YOUR interpretation is correct and MY interpretation is incorrect?

Trailblazer said:

If you're not caught off-guard or unprepared when it occurs why will that condemn you?
If you miss the return of Christ, that will not condemn you?

Click to expand...

Christ, in the parable about the 10 virgins', was saying that all were aware of his return, but some weren't prepared, it was these who were condemned.
The question was never whether his return would go unnoticed or not, for the entire world will be aware, but rather whether humans were morally prepared to stand before him.

Trailblazer said:

It does not matter that the religions were different. The reason they were different is because the people to whom they were revealed and the times in which they were revealed were different.

Speaking of all the religions collectively, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings, pp. 287-288

He also wrote that every age has its own problems so God prescribes a different remedy for mankind in every age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213

The Muslims misinterpreted the Qur'an so the Muslims hold a false belief about the crucifixion of Christ. This is no reflection upon Muhammad and what is in the Qur'an. The link below explains what Baha'is believe the verse in the Qur'an really means.

Qur’an 4:157

And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Do Baha’is believe Christ was crucified?

Abdul Bahá calls him a martyr, in Some Answered Questions, but also the Quran states that Jesus wasn’t crucified and rather made to look like he was. What is the official Baha’i view, and if it isn’t compatible with the Quran, why not?

Hope this helps you in your spiritual quest.

"Though we cannot imagine exactly what the Manifestations of the remote past were like, we can be sure of two things: They must have been able to reach their fellow-men in a normal manner-as Baháu'lláh reached His generation, and They were sent from God and thus Divine Beings. The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 14, 1943)

Here's another related passage

"Regarding your question relative to Surih 4, 156 of the 'Quran' in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ, but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the divine reality in Him."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938)

https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/ddig8d/do_bahais_believe_christ_was_crucified/

Click to expand...

Mohammed denied Christ's death, and thus the atoning efficacy of his sacrifice. Jesus was not God, noir can any man be God. Only the Father is God. And, you're wrong, Muslims do not believe that only the human nature died, for they do not believe that Jesus was God.
Plus, Islam and Christianity was just one example of irresolvable incompatibilities between different religions. Do not mock God by claiming that His word is divided into different cultures and dispensations. God is timeless and His word is immutable and eternal..