"Begotten", what does it mean?

SA Huguenot · Jan 31, 2022

muhammad_isa said:
You are just getting a "bee in your bonnet", and going on about the trinity.
I said that so-called Arian Emperors did not mercilessly persecute their fellow Christians.
Could it be that they were better than "your lot"?

Oh no .. wait.
You say that all "the others" aren't Christians.
Oh well, at least we know where we stand.
You hate "the others", and persecute them.

Ono what you are talking about.
For one, I dont care about any church, roman emperor, pope or whatever.
The Bible and the Trinity alone makes you a Christian.
You believe Jesus is God, you are a Christian.
Nothing less, such as a claim about counsels, and nothing more such as Muhammad and the Quran.
Only Jesus and the Bible.

Dogknox20 · Jan 31, 2022

Soapy said:
There’s nothing in that verse that suggests Satan EXCEPT that ALL DECEIVERS are OPPSERS TO TRUTH and are therefore SATANS (check the definition of the TITLE, ‘Satan’. And ‘Satan’ IS A TITLE. It is not the NAME of the fallen lead Angel. It is the title of him which can apply to ANYONE who does what this Angel did in his desire to do wrong.
By rights we should always preface like: ‘A Satan’

But regarding the verse; No, it’s just saying that vipers scatter and slither away from wrathful fire, for instance. The people of the time and in such places would be fully aware of broods of vipers and so John uses that analogy so they should be understanding of how disputable their behavior was.

.
All Jews knew that Satan was portrayed as a Serpent!
Soapy Looks like you have been caught in your lie.. Satan is the NAME of the devil!
Your words... And ‘Satan’ IS A TITLE. It is not the NAME of the fallen lead Angel.

The words of God.. (below) Satan is his name!
Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
Job 1:7
The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Job 1:8
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Job 2:2
And the Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Zechariah 3:1
Clean Garments for the High Priest
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
1 Chronicles 21:1
David Counts the Fighting Men
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

muhammad_isa · Jan 31, 2022

SA Huguenot said:
Ono what you are talking about.

You mean you don't want to know what I'm talking about.
It seems I know more about your creed than you do yourself.

Do you know the history about Christians fighting what you call "non-Christians" [Arians] that believed in Jesus and scriptures?

It seems to me that initially, Christians were persecuted by Romans, and then the Romans decided to make it part of their culture and continued persecuting Christians with the excuse that they were "heretics".

How sickening humans can be.

Soapy · Jan 31, 2022

Dogknox20 said:
nPeace I hope all is well..... ..taking things literal, where symbolism is used, and using symbolism where literal use is applied

OR......

Or they want to reject the truth anyway they can! The Truth is Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!

TRINITARIAN Christians claim that Jesus is God.

Jesus did not claim to be God.

Yhwh: The Father said he is God.

Jesus said his spiritual heavenly Father alone is God.

Thosecwho speak the truth in righteousness say that the Father Alone is God

Dogknox20 · Jan 31, 2022

Soapy said:
TRINITARIAN Christians claim that Jesus is God.

Jesus did not claim to be God.

Yhwh: The Father said he is God.

Jesus said his spiritual heavenly Father alone is God.

Thosecwho speak the truth in righteousness say that the Father Alone is God

You are NOT blessed!
Soapy scriptures tell you The Christian is Blessed!
Christians believe Jesus is God always have!

Clearly.. Thomas is a Christian
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Jesus does NOT correct Thomas in his error.. NO!
Fact is Jesus takes it one further.. Jesus tells Thomas "Christians are Blessed believing as he Thomas believes"!

Soapy · Jan 31, 2022

Dogknox20 said:
.
All Jews knew that Satan was portrayed as a Serpent!
Soapy Looks like you have been caught in your lie.. Satan is the NAME of the devil!
Your words... And ‘Satan’ IS A TITLE. It is not the NAME of the fallen lead Angel.

The words of God.. (below) Satan is his name!
Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
Job 1:7
The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Job 1:8
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Job 2:2
And the Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
Zechariah 3:1
Clean Garments for the High Priest
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
1 Chronicles 21:1
David Counts the Fighting Men
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

SATAN is a TITLE. It means ‘Opposer [to truth]’

Any one who opposes truth is [A] SATAN.

Do you think that almighty God named his greatest and most glorious angel ‘Opposer’?

People and things are very often given a title because of something they did or do (or did not do).

John (Son of Zachariah) was given the title ‘[The] Baptist’ because he Baptised people.

The Bible Genesis writer wrote ‘Satan’ for the name of the fallen Angel because in the main Angels do not have names. They are known to God unlike the way humans need to know things by a name or title. See that Adam is not the name of the first human being. In Hebrew it is ‘Red Earth’… WE ADOPT the description, ‘Adam’, AS A NAME in our western culture.

Soapy · Jan 31, 2022

Dogknox20 said:
You are NOT blessed!
Soapy scriptures tell you The Christian is Blessed!
Christians believe Jesus is God always have!

Clearly.. Thomas is a Christian
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Jesus does NOT correct Thomas in his error.. NO!
Fact is Jesus takes it one further.. Jesus tells Thomas "Christians are Blessed believing as he Thomas believes"!

I think you picked exactly the wrong person to claim as a figurehead for TRINITARIAN Christianity.

Jesus says to him: ‘Are you only believing that it is me because you saw and touched me…!’

Jesus ADMONISHED HIM for this.

THEN Jesus said: ‘BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO DID NOT SEE [NOR TOUCH] AND YET BELIEVE’

The blessed ones are the latter - not Thomas, the former!

sojourner · Jan 31, 2022

Soapy said:
I think you picked exactly the wrong person to claim as a figurehead for TRINITARIAN Christianity.

Jesus says to him: ‘Are you only believing that it is me because you saw and touched me…!’

Jesus ADMONISHED HIM for this.

THEN Jesus said: ‘BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO DID NOT SEE [NOR TOUCH] AND YET BELIEVE’

The blessed ones are the latter - not Thomas, the former!

You’re misquoting the text.

2ndpillar · Jan 31, 2022

sojourner said:
John isn’t talking about exegeting texts. To say that it is, is to misquote it.

Athanasius wasn’t Roman; he was Orthodox. Marcion produced a rudimentary canon, as well as Eusebius.

Your information is both biased and incorrect.

There is no copy of Eusebius 50 bibles, which were requested by the Roman emperor Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13), who was to deceive those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14), and the only reference is to a single chapter which is not in the current generally used canon of Athanasius. Marcion's canon consisted of 11 books, 10 epistles of the false prophet Paul, and a gospel of the supposed friend of Paul, Luke. Kind of like stacking the messengers of the devil/enemy (Matthew 13) into one pile. 1 John 2:27 is about understanding, as in interpreting (exegeting) a text. The lawless, the wicked, will have no understanding according to Daniel 12:10. That is why they probably fall back on words which they think no one understands.

2ndpillar · Jan 31, 2022

sojourner said:
John isn’t talking about exegeting texts. To say that it is, is to misquote it.

Athanasius wasn’t Roman; he was Orthodox. Marcion produced a rudimentary canon, as well as Eusebius.

Your information is both biased and incorrect.

Constantine was the Roman emperor, emperor over both the east and the west, and as Pontifex Maximus, he appointed bishops in his empire, and ruled over the gods and the calendar. The calendar concerning Passover, turning into Easter, the time when the canon of Athanasius was unveiled, was changed at Constantine's convened Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., centered on the feast of the pagan god Astarte. The Trinity doctrine was the prime purpose of the Council of Nicaea, in which Constantine presided, and mirrored the chief pagan gods in which he was in charge of as Pontifex Maximus.

Dogknox20 · Jan 31, 2022

Soapy said:
I think you picked exactly the wrong person to claim as a figurehead for TRINITARIAN Christianity.
Jesus says to him: ‘Are you only believing that it is me because you saw and touched me…!’
Jesus ADMONISHED HIM for this.
THEN Jesus said: ‘BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO DID NOT SEE [NOR TOUCH] AND YET BELIEVE’
The blessed ones are the latter - not Thomas, the former!

.
Right you are.. Thomas Believed "Jesus is God" because Thomas could see Jesus was His God!
‘Are you only believing that it is me because you saw and touched me…!’

Soapy EXACLY you said it yourself... ... You are NOT blessed!
Christians are blessed because they BELIEVE Jesus is God without seeing Jesus!
‘BLESSED ARE THOSE (Christians) WHO DID NOT SEE [NOR TOUCH] AND YET BELIEVE’

Soapy Christians have always believed Jesus is God! Christians have always believed Jesus is the God of Thomas!

sojourner · Jan 31, 2022

2ndpillar said:
There is no copy of Eusebius 50 bibles, which were requested by the Roman emperor Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13), who was to deceive those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14), and the only reference is to a single chapter which is not in the current generally used canon of Athanasius. Marcion's canon consisted of 11 books, 10 epistles of the false prophet Paul, and a gospel of the supposed friend of Paul, Luke. Kind of like stacking the messengers of the devil/enemy (Matthew 13) into one pile. 1 John 2:27 is about understanding, as in interpreting (exegeting) a text. The lawless, the wicked, will have no understanding according to Daniel 12:10. That is why they probably fall back on words which they think no one understands.

I may have never read a more screwed up post.

sojourner · Jan 31, 2022

2ndpillar said:
Constantine was the Roman emperor, emperor over both the east and the west, and as Pontifex Maximus, he appointed bishops in his empire, and ruled over the gods and the calendar. The calendar concerning Passover, turning into Easter, the time when the canon of Athanasius was unveiled, was changed at Constantine's convened Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., centered on the feast of the pagan god Astarte. The Trinity doctrine was the prime purpose of the Council of Nicaea, in which Constantine presided, and mirrored the chief pagan gods in which he was in charge of as Pontifex Maximus.

I was wrong. This one may be the most screwy post I’ve ever read.

Dogknox20 · Jan 31, 2022

Soapy said:
SATAN is a TITLE. It means ‘Opposer [to truth]’

Any one who opposes truth is [A] SATAN.

Do you think that almighty God named his greatest and most glorious angel ‘Opposer’?

People and things are very often given a title because of something they did or do (or did not do).

John (Son of Zachariah) was given the title ‘[The] Baptist’ because he Baptised people.

The Bible Genesis writer wrote ‘Satan’ for the name of the fallen Angel because in the main Angels do not have names. They are known to God unlike the way humans need to know things by a name or title. See that Adam is not the name of the first human being. In Hebrew it is ‘Red Earth’… WE ADOPT the description, ‘Adam’, AS A NAME in our western culture.

Your name is a title!

The Name of the devil is Satan he is the the worm!
All people have titles! Or do they call you just "You"? "Hay you come over here"?! "Hay Soapy come over here"!
Soapy It does NOT mater you are running down a rabbit trail... All KNOW when the word Satan is mentioned all KNOW beyond doubt It is the Devil!
When the Snake is mentioned ALL KNOW it is the Devil they are talking about!
His name could as yours "YOU" it does not matter the point is the CONTEXT of the words!

nPeace · Jan 31, 2022

sojourner said:
I didn’t set out to prove anything. I don’t have to prove anything. You’re the one imposing a set of criteria that simply don’t exist. It’s up to you to prove that your “system” is preferable to the community of peer-reviewed scholars who provide a bible for you to read in the first place.

You must be joking.

nPeace · Jan 31, 2022

Dogknox20 said:
nPeace I hope all is well..... ..taking things literal, where symbolism is used, and using symbolism where literal use is applied

OR......

Or they want to reject the truth anyway they can! The Truth is Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!

No use flogging a dead horse.

SA Huguenot · Jan 31, 2022

Soapy said:
TRINITARIAN Christians claim that Jesus is God.

Jesus did not claim to be God.

Yhwh: The Father said he is God.

Jesus said his spiritual heavenly Father alone is God.

Thosecwho speak the truth in righteousness say that the Father Alone is God

Just a few examples of the words of Jesus:
I and the Fater are one.
The Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
Father glorify me with the glory which I had before with you, before the world was.

Please explain the above?

Soapy · Feb 1, 2022

sojourner said:
You’re misquoting the text.

I didn’t misquote … I paraphrased.

But if you think I’m wrong then present the exact verse - as you see it(?) and let’s see if there a difference to my paraphrase!

Soapy · Feb 1, 2022

SA Huguenot said:
Just a few examples of the words of Jesus:
I and the Fater are one.
The Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
Father glorify me with the glory which I had before with you, before the world was.

Please explain the above?

‘I and the Father are one’ … what exactly does that mean?

‘The Father is in me and I am in my Father’… what exactly does that mean?

‘Father glorify me with the glory which I had before with you, before the world was.’…. what was the supposed glory that Jesus had supposedly with the Father supposedly before the world was?

Where in any of those quotes is there a hint of a trinity of three persons as a one God.

I DO understand that the TRINITARIAN version of the ONE TRUE GOD; of YHWH, the God of Jesus, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Moses, the God of David, Solomon, Joseph, Noah, … the God of us… is THREE PERSONS AS THEIR ONE GOD.

Exactly how Jesus is THREE PERSONS, I just cannot understand!

And not only THREE PERSONS AS ONE GOD but also TWO PERSONS AS ONE PERSON, in that he is supposed to have TWO PERSONSLITIES AT THE SAME TIME…. Or is it at DIFFERENT TIMES!!? Ummm…. Isn’t that the definition of a mental disorder called ‘DID’:

“A mental health condition, people with dissociative identity disorder (DID) have two or more separate personalities. These identities control a person’s behavior at different times. DID can cause gaps in memory and other problems.” (Quoted from a mental health web site)

Soapy · Feb 1, 2022

Dogknox20 said:
Your name is a title!

The Name of the devil is Satan he is the the worm!
All people have titles! Or do they call you just "You"? "Hay you come over here"?! "Hay Soapy come over here"!
Soapy It does NOT mater you are running down a rabbit trail... All KNOW when the word Satan is mentioned all KNOW beyond doubt It is the Devil!
When the Snake is mentioned ALL KNOW it is the Devil they are talking about!
His name could as yours "YOU" it does not matter the point is the CONTEXT of the words!

The title ‘Satan’ is deeply associated with the fallen leaf angel. The NAME of that lead angel is not ‘SATAN’.

The word ‘Satan’ means ‘Opposer’. It is the TITLE given to ‘one who opposes [truth]’.

It is NOT ‘the NAME of the fallen lead Angel that has become a title for all who are opposers to truth’.

You have it the wrong way round.

The scriptures insinuates that his name is ‘Lucifer’, the Morning Star.

Remember that the morning star (the planet Venus in human physical vision) is said to be the first star of the morning AND the most glorious.

At the end of time Jesus Christ is given that title: ‘The bright and morning star’… which is after the present Lucifer is eternally deposed - which follows the myriad of examples of:

‘[God] taketh away the FIRST to establish a SECOND’ (Hebrews 10:9)

"Begotten", what does it mean?

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