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I don't particularly want to sin...

ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Eyes to See said:
Morality is not dictated by man. It is given by God.
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Nope. Morality is a human (and to some degree a mammalian) trait. Without human morality civilization could not have developed for religion to develop and steal (very moral) morality for itself, then doctor it to omit anyone human who does not worship a particular god idea in a particular way and then persecute (and kill) those excluded humans in the name of their gods morality.
 
Eyes to See

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
ChristineM said:
Nope. Morality is a human (and to some degree a mammalian) trait. Without human morality civilization could not have developed for religion to develop and steal (very moral) morality for itself, then doctor it to omit anyone human who does not worship a particular god idea in a particular way and then persecute (and kill) those excluded humans in the name of their gods morality.
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Morality is a godly trait which humans display. Animals, unlike humans, are governed by instinct and thus cannot sin.

That morality is not restricted to humankind but comes from above we are told:

"You must be holy to me, because I, Jehovah, am holy."-Leviticus 20:26.

Although Jehovah God declared his holiness to the nation of Israel, and mandated that they must remain holy does not mean it is restricted to them. Later in in the Christian Scriptures we are told:

"But like the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in all your conduct, for it is written: “You must be holy, because I am holy.”-1 Peter 1:15-16.

Holiness is being pure and clean, set apart to do God's will. So God has a standard of right and wrong. What is holy is pure, undefiled, unadulterated.

God cannot lie:

"And is based on a hope of the everlasting life that God, who cannot lie."-Titus 1:2. And he hates a liar.

This morality comes from the heavenly throne of God. God sets the high clean moral standards of conduct of right and wrong, he holds himself to those standards and he expects all of his creation whom he created as free moral agents to also live up to his high degree of morality:

"Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.'"-Revelation 22:14-15.
 
Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Eyes to See said:
The whole OP is convoluted it doesn't make much sense. I am thinking perhaps you mean "unbelievers?" I don't know of any believers who think that without God everything is permitted. If you're referring to unbelievers that would make more sense.
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From Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, Dmitri's claim from his debate with Rakitin (as he reports it to Alyosha):

"'But what will become of men then?' I asked him, 'without God and immortal life? All things are permitted then, they can do what they like?'"

But the claim has been made many times in RF. I have myself been told that the reason I'm an atheist is so that I can do what I like, and don't have to do what God wants. Many of the atheists on the forum would, if they cared to go looking through tens of thousands of posts, tell you the same, and the accusation is always made by members of one of the Abrahamic religions.
Eyes to See said:
There are those who do think that morality is subjective. As they don't think there is a God who can dictate morality.

There is an interesting point in the Bible though about people who are alienated from God, who do not know of his moral code recorded for us in the Bible who of their own volition do the things of the law. It says these demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts:

"For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused."-Romans 2:14-15.
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And, like it or not, what Paul is saying in those versus is precisely this: you don't need his God to know what is right and wrong.
Eyes to See said:
The heart referred to here is the figurative one, the hidden seat of desire and motivation of a person. It appears that God has given us a moral code and written it into our DNA. That is why we can see cultures all around the world, even backwards and primitive ones who have had no contact with society for hundreds of years, hold simple truths to be true. Such as murder is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc.
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Every species that has evolved on earth has such a "moral code" appropriate to their own nature -- and it was written by nature, not by God.
 
Eyes to See

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
From Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, Dmitri's claim from his debate with Rakitin (as he reports it to Alyosha):

"'But what will become of men then?' I asked him, 'without God and immortal life? All things are permitted then, they can do what they like?'"

But the claim has been made many times in RF. I have myself been told that the reason I'm an atheist is so that I can do what I like, and don't have to do what God wants. Many of the atheists on the forum would, if they cared to go looking through tens of thousands of posts, will tell you the same, and the accusation is always made by members of one of the Abrahamic religions.

And, like it or not, what Paul is saying in those versus is precisely this: you don't need his God to know what is right and wrong.

Every species that has evolved on earth has such a "moral code" appropriate to their own nature -- and it was written by nature, not by God.
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand better your reason for making the OP. It is wrong for one to impugn motives on another person, and I can see your sense of justice is offended when you are falsely accused in this respect, that you chose not to believe in God because you want to do what is wrong. I believe you when you tell me that is not your reason. And I agree with you it is wrong for others to impugn motives on you which you do not have. It is wrong for anyone to presume to know the reason another does things if they do not know them, or have the facts.

Now you have a sense of right and wrong, a sense of justice within you and it felt slighted at the false accusation, and rightly so. This standard of morality which you have displayed does not come of its own violiton. It was given you. Everyone has a sense of justice within them, all of us that reason and think and have freewill. That is another part of the likeness to God that we have been given. If you were simply an animal your sense of right and wrong would not have been impugned, and you would not have reacted to the slander.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Eyes to See said:
Morality is a godly trait which humans display. Animals, unlike humans, are governed by instinct and thus cannot sin
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Back to front, try following the history of the human race rather than the confirmation bias of biblical faith and you will see the difference


And i am not interested in copy and paste from the bible, you want to impress me try copy and paste from a history book or scientific paper on the origin of morality.

Animals can and do show morality, particularly herd/hive/social animals

P.s. i am atheist and so cannot sin, your point is?
 
Eyes to See

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
ChristineM said:
Back to front, try following the history of the human race rather than the confirmation bias of biblical faith and you will see the difference


And i am not interested in copy and paste from the bible, you want to impress me try copy and paste from a history book or scientific paper on the origin of morality.

Animals can and do show morality, particularly herd/hive/social animals

P.s. i am atheist and so cannot sin, your point is?
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I respect you and your beliefs. And am not interested in trying to impress you. If you don't want to listen to or reason with God's word that is to be profoundly respected. I won't try with you.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Eyes to See said:
I respect you and your beliefs. And am not interested in trying to impress you. If you don't want to listen to or reason with God's word that is to be profoundly respected. I won't try with you.
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I prefer to discuss using reality not a mythical dream.
 
Eyes to See

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Shadow Wolf said:
But it's a sin according to Jehovah to eat them.
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The angel said:

"Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because I have never eaten anything defiled and unclean.”  And the voice spoke again to him, the second time: “Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed."-Acts 10:14-15.

That is the unclean animals under the Mosaic law were no longer unclean in God's eyes to eat in fact we are told:

"For every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over it."-1 Timothy 4:4-5.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Evangelicalhumanist said:
This is, of course, in counterpoint the thread "I just want to sin!!"

I offer up this question to those believers who honestly think that, without God, everything is permitted. That is, if you really do believe that dictum ("without God, everything is permitted"), then you must also admit that if you did not believe in God, and follow what you believe to be God's commands, you would not know right from wrong.

Really? Is that really true?

Make a case for me, anyone who really thinks that.
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Who would i be if I judged you from what I believe in? It would make me a awful person.
To see you for whom you are, I must look through your eyes. To know why you are you the way you are.

Please don't change because of others, only change when you wish to change.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Eyes to See said:
Jehovah said:

"Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because I have never eaten anything defiled and unclean.” 15 And the voice spoke again to him, the second time: “Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed."-Acts 10:14-15.
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Jesus also said he didn't do away with or lessen the Laws amd Prophets. But, then again, the Bible is hardly consistent with such things.
 
Eyes to See

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Jesus also said he didn't do away with or lessen the Laws amd Prophets. But, then again, the Bible is hardly consistent with such things.
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He said he did not come to destroy them but to fulfill them:

“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill."-Matthew 5:17.

And that Jesus did. He fulfilled the law. And then it was no more.

Let us say you had a contract, once that contract is fulfilled what happens to it? It is complete. There is no contradiction.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Eyes to See said:
You may want to peruse my posts in this thread. They have all been grounded in reality and use reason fact and logic. That is if that is what you are looking for. :D Have a good day.
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Wrong, they have been grounded in biblical rhetoric, very little fact and no logic in the real sense.
 
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