‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

MonkeyFire said:

I dont care about your opinion. Believe or stop existing, literally there is no hope without. Its in black and white.

Click to expand...

I think it's worth noting that your attitude of "I don't care" is contrary to I Peter 3:15, which says to always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, and to answer with gentleness and respect. I don't understand this stoic attitude that I've seen in Christians who don't care if other people don't believe in God or if other people are saved or not. The biblical command to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemies," as well as the Great Commission to "go and make disciples of all nations," is clearly contrary to this apathetic attitude that I've seen in most Christians these days.

As far as your last remarks go, I'm not a Christian anymore, and I doubt God's existence, but I strongly disagree that there's no hope without a belief in God. Speaking from personal experience, I'm at peace more now than I ever was during the 31 years I was a devout Christian. That being said, I can't speak for other ex-Christians, who have left Christianity as I have. My personal exodus from Christianity is completely anecotdal, and it may not be true for anyone else who has also forsaken their Christian faith.

QuestioningMind said:

I am NOT advocating that god should or shouldn't do ANYTHING. My entire OP is about whether or not god taking the life of a serial killer violates the killers free will...

Click to expand...

Umm .. OK.
I don't really think that that is the issue though here, is it?
Isn't it more about the whole set-up, rather than just considering individual cases?

I mean, if G-d wants to test us on a collective basis, for example.

QuestioningMind said:

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?

It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

Click to expand...

I have been thinking more about this. If God put the serial killer's life to an end, wouldn't that be interfering with the killers will to live?
God taking him out would also be interfering with the serial killers free will to continue killing.

SkepticThinker said:

How does anyone "actually listen to what God says?"

There seem to be a lot of people who think they're "listening to what God says" that have a whole bunch of conflicting ideas with other people who think they're "listening to what God says."

Click to expand...

SkepticThinker said:

How does anyone "actually listen to what God says?"

There seem to be a lot of people who think they're "listening to what God says" that have a whole bunch of conflicting ideas with other people who think they're "listening to what God says."

Click to expand...

It's written.
You can read it.
A lot of people can twist or deliberately mistranslate it it for political purposes, etc
but cant change what it says.

clara17 said:

It's written.
You can read it.
A lot of people can twist or deliberately mistranslate it it for political purposes, etc
but cant change what it says.

Click to expand...

Lots of things are written. That doesn't make them true. Harry Potter is written as well.
And which holy book is the right one, by the way?
And how do we know who is interpreting each of them correctly?

Sgt. Pepper said:

I think it's worth noting that your attitude of "I don't care" is contrary to I Peter 3:15, which says to always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, and to answer with gentleness and respect. I don't understand this stoic attitude that I've seen in Christians who don't care if other people don't believe in God or if other people are saved or not. The biblical command to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemies," as well as the Great Commission to "go and make disciples of all nations," is clearly contrary to this apathetic attitude that I've seen in most Christians these days.

As far as your last remarks go, I'm not a Christian anymore, and I doubt God's existence, but I strongly disagree that there's no hope without a belief in God. Speaking from personal experience, I'm at peace more now than I ever was during the 31 years I was a devout Christian. That being said, I can't speak for other ex-Christians, who have left Christianity as I have. My personal exodus from Christianity is completely anecotdal, and it may not be true for anyone else who has also forsaken their Christian faith.

Click to expand...

Matt 9:37 and 10:14
If they wont listen, move on.
The harvest is great and the workers are few.
There is no time for begging people to listen.
And those who have never heard are much better
off than those who have heard and reject God, like yourself.
2 Peter 2:21

SkepticThinker said:

Lots of things are written. That doesn't make them true. Harry Potter is written as well.
And which holy book is the right one, by the way?
And how do we know who is interpreting each of them correctly?

Click to expand...

Good question.
You can not trust anyone else to interpret them for you.
You have to read and determine for yourself what is true and what makes sense, and matches what you see.
Too many people, especially churches have their own motives and misrepresent things intentionally.

Which holy book is the right one? Im not aware of any holy books.

clara17 said:

Good question.
You can not trust anyone else to interpret them for you.
You have to read and determine for yourself what is true and what makes sense, and matches what you see.
Too many people, especially churches have their own motives and misrepresent things intentionally.

Which holy book is the right one? Im not aware of any holy books.

Click to expand...

Well, that's no pathway to truth. That's a pathway to everyone just believing whatever they want to believe. I'm interested in believing true things.

Holy books include the Bible, The Seven Valleys, The Four Valleys, The Vedas, The Upanishads, The Quran, The Hadiths, The Agamas, The Tanakh, The Talmud, The Kojiki, The Dao De Jing, The Avesta, among others.

SkepticThinker said:

Well, that's no pathway to truth. That's a pathway to everyone just believing whatever they want to believe. I'm interested in believing true things.

Holy books include the Bible, The Seven Valleys, The Four Valleys, The Vedas, The Upanishads, The Quran, The Hadiths, The Agamas, The Tanakh, The Talmud, The Kojiki, The Dao De Jing, The Avesta, among others.

Click to expand...

Im not sure if people claiming books are holy, actually makes them holy.

If you are interested in believing true things, don't you need to investigate them for yourself?
If not, who do you trust to tell you the truth?

SkepticThinker said:

Lots of things are written. That doesn't make them true. Harry Potter is written as well.
And which holy book is the right one, by the way?
And how do we know who is interpreting each of them correctly?

Click to expand...

The Protestants believe that they're correct in their interpretation of the bible, and this is in spite of the fact that there are literally thousands of Protestant denominations (including churches that split from another church) in the United States alone. Christians arguing with other Christians whether salvation is conditional or not, Christians arguing with other Christians on whether a person has to be baptized in order to be truly saved, and Christians arguing with other Christians on whether a person has to be immersed in water or just sprinkled with water to be baptized. The list of theological disagreements and dissension among Christians goes on and on. The old adage, "Christians eat their own" still rings true in churches today, and Christians are often their own worst enemy.

The Catholics believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the one and only "True Church," and Protestants aren't saved on account of their protestant beliefs, and salvation only comes by Christ and through his Catholic Church (source). On the other hand, there are Protestants who don't believe that Catholics are true Christians. And then we have the Orthodox Christians, the Mormons, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, and that's a whole other can of worms to open up. My point is that we have all these Christians, who all believe that they're right in their theology and other Christians are dead wrong in theirs. I realize I'm stating the obvious, but these Christians can't all be correct when their preferred biblical beliefs, biblical interpretation, and church dogma contradict each other.

Sgt. Pepper said:

My point is that we have all these Christians, who all believe that they're right in their theology and other Christians are dead wrong in theirs. I realize I'm stating the obvious, but these Christians can't all be correct when their preferred biblical beliefs, biblical interpretation, and church dogma contradict each other.

Click to expand...

You are stating what would be obvious to anyone who is logical, but unfortunately most Christians are not very logical, or they would SEE what you SEE. And when I tell them that they are all reading the same Bible, so why do they have different beliefs, they just don't get it. All they can say is that they are right and the 'other Christians' are wrong. But why?

Trailblazer said:

You are stating what would be obvious to anyone who is logical, but unfortunately most Christians are not very logical, or they would SEE what you SEE. And when I tell them that they are all reading the same Bible, so why do they have different beliefs, they just don't get it. All they can say is that they are right and the 'other Christians' are wrong. But why?

Click to expand...

What if all of them are wrong and the scripture is right?

clara17 said:

What if all of them are wrong and the scripture is right?

Click to expand...

I believe that the scripture is right but the Christian interpretations are mostly wrong.

Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning. Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and none of them clearly understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. That is understandable because it was prophesied by Daniel in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means knowledge has been increased so we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before.

Trailblazer said:

I believe that the scripture is right but the Christian interpretations are mostly wrong.

Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning. Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and none of them clearly understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. That is understandable because it was prophesied by Daniel in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means knowledge has been increased so we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before.

Click to expand...

Isnt this the guy who taught that the world needs a unified world court, world currency, world religion and single world language?
Is this any different from what the fortune 500 moneychangers are advocating now?
And who will administer these things and keep them from becoming corrupted? Humans?
The whole message in the Bible is that everything is corrupted and will be removed/replaced and made new.
The idea to build a paradise on earth is exactly the opposite of what it teaches. That is the anti-Christ system.
An earthly kingdom that will collapse instead of eternal life, a bowl of soup instead of a birthright, material things over spiritual.
The languages were divided by God so they could NOT unify and build a world system.
This is why they hated Jesus, he said my kingdom is not of this earth, it is a spiritual kingdom that is eternal. They could not comprehend this, or understand anything beyond the tip of their nose.

clara17 said:

Isnt this the guy who taught that the world needs a unified world court, world currency, world religion and single world language?
Is this any different from what the fortune 500 moneychangers are advocating now?
And who will administer these things and keep them from becoming corrupted? Humans?

Click to expand...

Yes, Baha'is believe that there will be a new world order that will eventually be put in place and replace the old world order. It will be administered by new governments that emerge. Baha'is have their own institutions but those are only for Baha'is. Humans will keep governments from being corrupted by following the principles of Baha'u'llah.

clara17 said:

The whole message in the Bible is that everything is corrupted and will be removed/replaced and made new.

Click to expand...

That is essentially what Baha'is believe.

clara17 said:

The idea to build a paradise on earth is exactly the opposite of what it teaches. That is the anti-Christ system.

Click to expand...

What do you think Jesus meant when He said thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven? That is not a paradise on earth but it is a new world order, the Kingdom of God on earth..

clara17 said:

An earthly kingdom that will collapse instead of eternal life, a bowl of soup instead of a birthright, material things over spiritual.

Click to expand...

It is not an either/or. There will be an earthly kingdom and also a kingdom in heaven that is eternal.

clara17 said:

The languages were divided by God so they could NOT unify and build a world system.

Click to expand...

That was then and now is now. Time marches on. This is a new age and God has revealed that humanity is to be united and eventually there ill be a universal auxiliary language although everyone will also have their native language.

clara17 said:

This is why they hated Jesus, he said my kingdom is not of this earth, it is a spiritual kingdom that is eternal. They could not comprehend this, or understand anything beyond the tip of their nose.

Click to expand...

That is correct, the kingdom of Jesus is not of this world, it is in heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

Trailblazer said:

Humans will keep governments from being corrupted by following the principles of Baha'u'llah.

Click to expand...

Tehee. Thats adorable. I think it may have been tried once or twice before.

Trailblazer said:

What do you think Jesus meant when He said thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven? That is not a paradise on earth but it is a new world order, the Kingdom of God on earth..

Click to expand...

I think he meant exactly what he said.

The elements will dissolve (1 Peter 3:10)
I am looking at a pencil right now, so that one can't have happened yet.

The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (1 Cor 15:26)
Is there still death? I just checked the obituaries and there were a few deaths last week.

Trailblazer said:

That was then and now is now. Time marches on. This is a new age and God has revealed that humanity is to be united and eventually there ill be a universal auxiliary language although everyone will also have their native language.

Click to expand...

Did this happen in 1844 when Baha unsealed the book? Or is is slated for the future.

Trailblazer said:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

Click to expand...

So he disagrees with the Bible where it says Heaven and earth will pass away? Rev 6:14 and Rev 21:1?

clara17 said:

Tehee. Thats adorable. I think it may have been tried once or twice before.



I think he meant exactly what he said.

The elements will dissolve (1 Peter 3:10)
I am looking at a pencil right now, so that one can't have happened yet.

The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (1 Cor 15:26)
Is there still death? I just checked the obituaries and there were a few deaths last week.



Did this happen in 1844 when Baha unsealed the book? Or is is slated for the future.



So he disagrees with the Bible where it says Heaven and earth will pass away? Rev 6:14 and Rev 21:1?

Click to expand...

Trailblazer said:

Yes, Baha'is believe that there will be a new world order that will eventually be put in place and replace the old world order. It will be administered by new governments that emerge. Baha'is have their own institutions but those are only for Baha'is. Humans will keep governments from being corrupted by following the principles of Baha'u'llah.

That is essentially what Baha'is believe.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven? That is not a paradise on earth but it is a new world order, the Kingdom of God on earth..

It is not an either/or. There will be an earthly kingdom and also a kingdom in heaven that is eternal.

That was then and now is now. Time marches on. This is a new age and God has revealed that humanity is to be united and eventually there ill be a universal auxiliary language although everyone will also have their native language.

That is correct, the kingdom of Jesus is not of this world, it is in heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

Click to expand...

typo:
2 Peter 3:10
not 1 Peter

PruePhillip said:

You are seeking to find some mid way point - a half controlling god.
Sort of letting everyone do what they want, but not have to pay any price for it.

Click to expand...

Well, we’re made in God’s image. If God demands He avoid responsibility, He shouldn’t be shocked when we do.

loverofhumanity said:

The reason God didn’t send just one revelation is because we are ever progressing like in a school.

Click to expand...

Why is there not a 21st century prophet? Shouldn’t there be someone every generation?

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

Well, we’re made in God’s image. If God demands He avoid responsibility, He shouldn’t be shocked when we do.

Click to expand...

But God lives up to His responsibilities, and He expects humans to do likewise.
It is called a Covenant.

God communicates to humans through Messengers that establish religions. Every religion has a covenant that God made between Himself and His followers through His Messengers. God guarantees to provide humanity with guidance by sending Messengers and humans are responsible to recognize them and obey their teachings and laws. God has always kept His promises but most humans have failed to live up to their responsibility and abide by the covenants.

In religion, a covenant is a formal alliance or agreement made by God with a religious community or with humanity in general. The concept, central to the Abrahamic religions, is derived from the biblical covenants, notably from the Abrahamic covenant. Christianity asserts that God made an additional covenant through Jesus Christ, called the "new covenant".

A covenant in its most general sense and historical sense, is a solemn promise to engage in or refrain from a specified action. A covenant is a type of agreement analogous to a contractual condition. The covenantor makes a promise to a covenantee to do (affirmative covenant) or not do some action (negative covenant).
Covenant (religion) - Wikipedia