I love dharmic religions

Aupmanyav · Jan 10, 2022

Link said:
I believe in severe retribution and intense grace as a reward, because, life is a test. It's obvious it it is. And Justice is not possible in this endless chances of lives and that at the end everyone get's enlightened same station. Doesn't make sense to me brother ..

Link, what proof do you have for your God or for Mohammad being the messenger?
Or what proof Brain2 has for his God and how did he put Jesus in the womb of a virgin girl. What is the proof of Jesus' miracles and his resurrection.
All big tales, all fiction.

As both of you know, I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in existence of God, soul, heaven and hell, end of days and judgement, reincarnation or being raised again. I do not believe in Moksha/deliverance through any divine grace. 'Karma' is our deeds in this and only one life. Our good deeds will earn respect and give us peace. Evil deeds may lead to psychological problems and land us in prison. Anything more than that has no proof.

Some thing may be obvious to you, but you need to provide proof or it before expecting others to believe it. There are no endless chances, We get only one. We may understand the working of the world in this very life or we die as fools, believing in falsehood. Although it does not matter much. The wise and the fools, the prophets and messengers, and sons, all have the same ending - chemical recycling and being annihilated as persons.

Aupmanyav · Jan 10, 2022

Link said:
If they believe other than the true God, yes, it's rational. Otherwise it's irrational.

Very clear. Either I believe what you believe or otherwise, I am irrational. But you would not provide me any proof of what you say.

Secret Chief · Jan 10, 2022

Starlight94 said:
I love dharmic religions. Why? Because of the teachings of karma and reincarnation is common sense.
The law of karma and reincarnation make also sense since it is both justice and mercy.
If God/ Gods really is both justice and love then reincarnation has to be true. And in the dharmic religions it is more important to be a good person than to believe in God/gods

Any thoughts? What do you think about what I wrote? Do you agree or disgree?

I'm a little surprised you say you love dharmic religions since you "believe strongly in only one God."
Anyhoo my thoughts.
Karma means volitional action (and vipaka is its fruit), so there is no justice or mercy involved (courtesy of some third party).
Reincarnation I reject, if this is meant to involve a soul, given I reject that notion.
I would hope it is important to be a "good" person irrespective of any religious beliefs, or lack of such beliefs.

Aupmanyav · Jan 10, 2022

Brian2 said:
What is the point. We are God, we started off being God, there was nowhere to go grow and evolve until and unless God had some sort of break down and split up into billions of pieces, none of which were God as before. There was no point to the whole thing in the first place.

It's not a game for us here on earth, it's serious because suffering and death is serious and there was no point to the whole thing to begin with except what I so irreverently call a break down by God or something where He either decides or can't help Himself and does the same thing again when He was all back together and perfection and He has to have His break down and cause suffering and getting back to perfection and knowing who He is again.
If we consider God as a big lump of mercury, it is like every now and then God purposefully knocks some of Himself off into the dirt and it breaks up into pieces and none of the pieces know who they are. What is the point?

IMO that is not true but is a false teaching that made it's way into the Church.
BUT really what we want is justice and mercy. The Abrahamic God knows us and what is justice for us and is also merciful. Where is any mercy in karma and rebirth, especially when the whole thing did not have to happen in the first place and there is really no us, all the pieces of mercury go back together into the one lump and we don't even know we existed as us.
It isn't as if God is working towards an eternal utopia in the Dharmic religions (maybe in Buddhism,,,,,,,,,,,,but is there even God in that religion). God is working towards a temporary reprieve until He does it all again.

No. We are not Gods. Don't we engage in morning ablutions and fart. Does God do that?

But we are the stuff of the universe and that makes up all things in the universe - humans, animals, vegetation and non-living things. The stuff of the universe does not have any suffering or death. Are the atoms in your body inconvenienced if you fall ill? Will these atoms die when you will die? No. They would continue just as happily and turn into part of other living or non-living things.

Ah, the Abrahamic God is just and merciful. That is why he allows wars and accidents to happen, and also murders and rapes. That is why he sends famines and floods, fires and volcanoes, earthquakes and tsunamis, tornadoes and typhoons, cancer and Covid-19 to the world.

Aupmanyav · Jan 10, 2022

Secret Chief said:
I'm a little surprised you say you love dharmic religions since you "believe strongly in only one God."

Well, there are Hindus who believe only in their own chosen God or Goddess. Hare Krishnas are an example, they worship Krishna.And Good Night. Rest tomorrow.

Katzpur · Jan 10, 2022

Starlight94 said:
The law of karma and reincarnation make also sense since it is both justice and mercy.
If God/ Gods really is both justice and love then reincarnation has to be true.

I'm not sure why you think that if God is really both justice and love, then reincarnation has to be true. Could you explain? I believe that God is both justice and love, but I don't believe in reincarnation.

Link · Jan 10, 2022

Katzpur said:
I'm not sure why you think that if God is really both justice and love, then reincarnation has to be true. Could you explain? I believe that God is both justice and love, but I don't believe in reincarnation.

I think the OP once told me, they deem that his mercy must prevail his wrath and retributive justice. And so they don't believe that this is possible if hell is forever, in which is the case for Islam for a lot of people (disbelievers in general, though some non-Muslims are exempt if they have no means to faith or disbelief).

They probably see it too much wrath and not enough mercy that God punishes people for not being guided to his proper religion.

Link · Jan 10, 2022

Aupmanyav said:
Link, what proof do you have for your God or for Mohammad being the messenger?
Or what proof Brain2 has for his God and how did he put Jesus in the womb of a virgin girl. What is the proof of Jesus' miracles and his resurrection.
All big tales, all fiction.

As both of you know, I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in existence of God, soul, heaven and hell, end of days and judgement, reincarnation or being raised again. I do not believe in Moksha/deliverance through any divine grace. 'Karma' is our deeds in this and only one life. Our good deeds will earn respect and give us peace. Evil deeds may lead to psychological problems and land us in prison. Anything more than that has no proof.

Some thing may be obvious to you, but you need to provide proof or it before expecting others to believe it. There are no endless chances, We get only one. We may understand the working of the world in this very life or we die as fools, believing in falsehood. Although it does not matter much. The wise and the fools, the prophets and messengers, and sons, all have the same ending - chemical recycling and being annihilated as persons.

These are two separate topics.

We are talking about philosophy of Islam with respect to hell. In this philosophy, you have to say, say God did provide proof, would it be right or wrong for God to punish for turning away from his proofs and guidance?

We aren't talking about proof of Quran being from God or that God exists in this thread. That would be way off-topic.

But I do agree with you people should provide proofs for their religion.

Vinayaka · Jan 10, 2022

Ashoka said:
It really is. I feel like Abrahamic faiths tend towards separating in us vs them mentality. It's very sad.

Not everyone, but I'm sure the percentage is higher than it is in Hinduism. Some Hindus, reacting to that, turn it back on them, but that's not really our way, in my view.

Samael_Khan · Jan 10, 2022

Ashoka said:
It really is. I feel like Abrahamic faiths tend towards separating in us vs them mentality. It's very sad.

That is the intent. That is why monotheistic religions are destructive to other religions and cultures (besides Judaism which is pretty insular). They are tribalistic, creating collective narcissism within the group, which keeps the group together and often allows for the hierarchy to better control the followers.

Samael_Khan · Jan 10, 2022

Link said:
In Islam, desiring other than God makes you evil. So you have to see which one is more rational. If we go to other than God's doors, where are we really going? (Islam arguing)

If we seek to follow humans or hidden beings (we may call them gods) without proof, why did we do so if God can provide proofs for who to follow and surely would?

Both of these are unforgivable, even if most humans including most Muslims may do them.

You have no proof of the God you worship though, only belief......

Link · Jan 10, 2022

Israel Khan said:
You have no proof of the God you worship though, only belief......

She isn't talking about proofs for Islam or the proper God in OP. More on the lines, would God punish people for rejecting his proofs (if he provided them as claimed by Islam) and is rejecting God's guidance and proofs an indication one is evil (as claimed by Islam)?

And she is leaning that Hindu concept of justice and mercy is more rational.

I hope you understand. I've made other threads about proofs for God, Oneness, Islam, etc.

Spirit of Light · Jan 10, 2022

Link said:
Salam

Brother, she asked for our thoughts. She talking about judgmental God vs non-judgmental God, this is a propaganda that is everywhere now. I'm defending to the best of my ability why I believe in a Just and yes Judgmental God.

Why I believe it is evil to turn away from God's guidance and go other then his doors. Why need to seek proof for guidance.

She asked for our thoughts. This what she wants. She is looking for a philosophical debate about the points she raised.

I believe in severe retribution and intense grace as a reward, because, life is a test. It's obvious it it is. And Justice is not possible in this endless chances of lives and that at the end everyone get's enlightened same station. Doesn't make sense to me brother but more importantly, it is about providing feedback to the OP about it.

I am aware of your belief and trust me, I respect your belief as I respect her belief and curiousity

My reply was not an attack on your view and belief. If you felt i targeded you, that would a mistake by me.

Spirit of Light · Jan 10, 2022

Vinayaka said:
She put it in the debates forum. That must be for a reason.

Yes, and my personal views on this topic should not offend others

i might take a soft path, to soft for some people

Link · Jan 10, 2022

Seeker of White Light said:
I am aware of your belief and trust me, I respect your belief as I respect her belief and curiousity

My reply was not an attack on your view and belief. If you felt i targeded you, that would a mistake by me.

Brother I know her thought process. I believed in God and Angels without believe in Prophets - was inclining to soothsayers books (new Age stuff and neopagan stuff) and was into that stuff for years. I considered myself a deist only because I would never call any other being a god aside from God but believed he didn't send books but that his Angels (go by other names including "gods" by some people) did communicate and had more of soothsaying type Prophets rather then authority type chosen from God with proofs Prophets and Messengers and leaders.

The main reason I rejected Islam was to escape the belief in hell.

So I know where she is coming from. I been through similar thought process.

Hell is not easy one anyone to accept but is it rational?

Samael_Khan · Jan 10, 2022

Link said:
She isn't talking about proofs for Islam or the proper God in OP. More on the lines, would God punish people for rejecting his proofs (if he provided them as claimed by Islam) and is rejecting God's guidance and proofs an indication one is evil (as claimed by Islam)?

And she is leaning that Hindu concept of justice and mercy is more rational.

I hope you understand. I've made other threads about proofs for God, Oneness, Islam, etc.

Well, that gets to the core of the matter doesn't it? If God gives vague guidance and proofs without effectively linking it to himself, and just expects people to believe and punishes them if they don't, then he shows an extreme lack of understanding of how to provide proof/evidence which makes him lesser than some humans in this way. His punishment of them is irrational or just plain petty.

The Hindu concept of Justice and Mercy only makes rational sense IF people remember their past lives. Since people do not, there might be mercy, but certainly no justice is served because people do not remember their past lives, so one is basically punishing a new person with a recycled soul. (People should let me know if I am misunderstanding something here.)

Link · Jan 10, 2022

Israel Khan said:
Well, that gets to the core of the matter doesn't it? If God gives vague guidance and proofs without effectively linking it to himself, and just expects people to believe and punishes them if they don't, then he shows an extreme lack of understanding of how to provide proof/evidence which makes him lesser than some humans in this way. His punishment of them is irrational or just plain petty.

The Hindu concept of Justice and Mercy only makes rational sense IF people remember their past lives. Since people do not, there might be mercy, but certainly no justice is served because people do not remember their past lives, so one is basically punishing a new person with a recycled soul. (People should let me know if I am misunderstanding something here.)

I agree with all your points. But how clear Quran is as a proof, is not the subject of this thread. Though related, it's not it.

Samael_Khan · Jan 10, 2022

Link said:
Brother I know her thought process. I believed in God and Angels without believe in Prophets - was inclining to soothsayers books (new Age stuff and neopagan stuff) and was into that stuff for years. I considered myself a deist only because I would never call any other being a god aside from God but believed he didn't send books but that his Angels (go by other names including "gods" by some people) did communicate and had more of soothsaying type Prophets rather then authority type chosen from God with proofs Prophets and Messengers and leaders.

The main reason I rejected Islam was to escape the belief in hell.

So I know where she is coming from. I been through similar thought process.

Hell is not easy one anyone to accept but is it rational?

Is punishment in hell eternal in Islam?

Spirit of Light · Jan 10, 2022

Link said:
Brother I know her thought process. I believed in God and Angels without believe in Prophets - was inclining to soothsayers books (new Age stuff and neopagan stuff) and was into that stuff for years. I considered myself a deist only because I would never call any other being a god aside from God but believed he didn't send books but that his Angels (go by other names including "gods" by some people) did communicate and had more of soothsaying type Prophets rather then authority type chosen from God with proofs Prophets and Messengers and leaders.

The main reason I rejected Islam was to escape the belief in hell.

So I know where she is coming from. I been through similar thought process.

Hell is not easy one anyone to accept but is it rational?

My understanding of hell is that it is a state of consciousness where humans suffer, even in this life on earth.
Heaven is also a state of consciousness but not of suffering, only be glory and peace.
Both is possible to realise in this life time.

Link · Jan 10, 2022

Israel Khan said:
Is punishment in hell eternal in Islam?

It's forever per Quran to my understanding. Some people try to twist through all those verses, but it's obvious it is per Quran by what I witness.

Sufi and Irfan type Shiites often see it as temporary depending, some do, some don't.

I love dharmic religions

Be your own guru

Be your own guru

nirvana is samsara

Be your own guru

Be your own guru

Not your average Mormon

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

devotee

Goosebender

Goosebender

Veteran Member

Be who ever you want

Be who ever you want

Veteran Member

Goosebender

Veteran Member

Goosebender

Be who ever you want

Veteran Member