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The idea of hell is emotionally draining.

Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe also apathy towards oppressed while enjoying life in luxury and ease, can be described in a way, that merits perpetual wrath from God. This is done for example in Suratal Qalam. That people are tried with the poor and oppressed.

But the real notion is that as Quran describes, those who follow truth cannot be compared to those who prefer the falsehood. Those who are on clear proof(s) from their Lord cannot be compared to who is blind and makes up reality.

The natural way of humans that are meant to be dignified in, is to take side of the kings appointed by God over their oppressors, enemies, and misguiding leaders.

The Quran describes that majority of those evil actually believe they are good, but really their actions cause mischief and chaos in the earth.

I believe not taking side of God's champion king has consequences not only an oppression to oneself, but really, it causes everyone else to suffer.

And it happens to be the reality that disbelievers always have misguiding leaders who oppress believers and this continues to this day.

Aside from that, it is a fact that there is no comparison between the enviers of chosen humans like Adam and Noah and their lovers and those who are attracted to the light of God's chosen ones.

The latter deserve paradise while the haters deserve hell.
 
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Truthseeker

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Link said:
I think we disagree, God has compassion for all, but that even has limits. There are people like Sadam Hussein who deserve his wrath forever.
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My belief is different, he can advance though the prayers of others for him, charitable works done in his name, or his own pleading and supplications of God for mercy in the next life.
 
Truthseeker

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Link said:
Aside from that, it is a fact that there is no comparison between the enviers of chosen humans like Adam and Noah and their lovers and those who are attracted to the light of God's chosen ones.

The latter deserve paradise while the haters deserve hell.
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Yes, I agree with that. Though like I said in my previous post, the hell doesn't have to be forever.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Truthseeker9 said:
My belief is different, he can advance though the prayers of others for him, charitable works done in his name, or his own pleading and supplications of God for mercy in the next life.
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If had any love towards God's beauty their prayers would be accepted, but their prayers are going to be only in error. Those in hell are in hell forever from my understanding.
 
Truthseeker

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Link said:
If had any love towards God's beauty their prayers would be accepted, but their prayers are going to be only in error. Those in hell are in hell forever from my understanding.
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Can you quote Qur'anic verses that establish that for sure?
 
Sandra Jayne

Sandra Jayne

Member
Link said:
When I left Islam for five years, my mind was twisted in a way to find faults in Quran. But emotionally the reason I was motivated to leave Islam and find faults was the idea of hell for disbelievers (I knew the concept of mustafeen and it was not that being the problem).

How you emotional phrase a moral question like for example, why suffering exists in the world, will make you disbelieve very easily. This is why it's important for me to pay attention to the proofs and insights in Quran proving hell and particular to disbelievers and the different levels of it because without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam.

Here is a poem I wrote way back:

Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief



Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honoring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.





Comment: The idea of hell being denied by the wicked people is all over Quran. At the end, the battle between truth and falsehood in my view, will be a battle between soothsayers type religion and the Prophets and sent ones religion, and there will not be different versions of the latter, because Mahdi and Jesus will bring miracles. It's just at this point, some will accuse them of being sorcerers and gained their power through skill and knowledge rather then being given that power from God which is disbelief in God's Lordship.
Click to expand...
Link said:
When I left Islam for five years, my mind was twisted in a way to find faults in Quran. But emotionally the reason I was motivated to leave Islam and find faults was the idea of hell for disbelievers (I knew the concept of mustafeen and it was not that being the problem).

How you emotional phrase a moral question like for example, why suffering exists in the world, will make you disbelieve very easily. This is why it's important for me to pay attention to the proofs and insights in Quran proving hell and particular to disbelievers and the different levels of it because without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam.

Here is a poem I wrote way back:

Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief

Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honoring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.





Comment: The idea of hell being denied by the wicked people is all over Quran. At the end, the battle between truth and falsehood in my view, will be a battle between soothsayers type religion and the Prophets and sent ones religion, and there will not be different versions of the latter, because Mahdi and Jesus will bring miracles. It's just at this point, some will accuse them of being sorcerers and gained their power through skill and knowledge rather then being given that power from God which is disbelief in God's Lordship.
Click to expand...

I cannot comment on the teachings of the Quran but I suspect like Christian scripture the teaching of hell is a clever way of getting believers to 'tow the line'.
The original Hebrew in scripture was Sheol (abode of the dead) but over time in many places the word hell came into use and the church promoted the idea it was a place of torment but this is not scriptural.

For example, both good men and evil men go to Sheol - Gen 37:35; Num 16:30; Jon 2:2. Job prayed to go to Sheol to put an end to his suffering, here the church left it as Sheol because they didn't want people to believe he prayed to go to hell. Yet in over sixty other places they translated the word for Sheol either as Hades or hell. Even Jesus descended into Sheol/Hades and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have descended to a place of torment, he went to his grave.

For the wages of sin is death....Romans 6:23. Once you have died your sins are 'wiped out' so to speak.

Even if this doesn't convince you the way I look at it is even as an imperfect human I would never commit someone to a place of torment forever no matter how wicked they might have been. If you believe God has infinite love and mercy towards His creations do you think He would inflict such a judgement?
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe God is the most compassionate and merciful in the place of compassion and pardon, but the most severest in vengeance in the proper place of retribution.

Both aspects of God is beautiful, and the place of wrath is such that his compassion precedes it.
 
A

Alex22

Member
Both Muslims and Christians got their views on hell on the Greek concept of Tartarus, no one goes there for disbelief or belief.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It can be mentally draining because in reality God wants to save humans from hell. He doesn't want people going there nor believers want people going there. But it such that retribution befits those who go astray, but God and chosen guides and their believers always try to guide people back.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Alex22 said:
Both Muslims and Christians got their views on hell on the Greek concept of Tartarus, no one goes there for disbelief or belief.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for Christians, but hell is described in the Quran in a clear way.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Dark are the ways that lead away from God. I do believe those who turn away from God's path to deserve hell but this different then me wanting them to go there. In reality God and chosen ones and their believers want people to reform themselves through asking forgiveness of God sincerely and that to repent to him sincerely and redeem themselves.

This exactly what makes it both mental draining and confusing. We don't want people to go there and the original plan of God creating his creation, there was no hell intended in that plan. But things went haywire unexpectedly and things gotten a lot worse and worse.

We walked the path of his warnings and carried on in disobedience despite his threats. Destroyed cities are found through out the earth but we pay no attention and show no fear.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The philosophical proof is simple. Everything is from God and returns to God and hence anger and wrath and vengeance also has a proper place in virtue. Hate also has a proper place in virtue.

The darkness is not like the light and the people of light are not going to be treated like the people of darkness.

The path to God leads to him and aversion from his path leads away from him into the shadows.

The consequence of turning away from God's light and the means to knowing him and approaching is that you become worthy of his anger and wrath, that is the proper place of wrath and anger. That's because one turns away from the proofs of God only does for their dark desires and there is no room for one who doesn't repent to be forgiven of that.

Just as God is infinite in compassion in it's proper place so he is infinite in wrath and anger in it's proper place. The proper place is obviously only when compassion precedes it in principle.
 
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The_Fisher_King

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Link said:
That means God will try to save a soul and accept repentance, but if rebels and persists, the outcome is God's wrath, the latter being a proper place of it.
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That sounds like God's Wrath will prevail over God's Mercy to me...
 
The_Fisher_King

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Link said:
Yes, for disbelievers, their end result is God's wrath. For believers, his mercy precedes his wrath and they are forgiven.
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Hmm. Since the disbelievers will most keenly feel God's Wrath, it seems to me that God's Statement that His Mercy will prevail over His Wrath might also extend to the disbelievers eventually.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The_Fisher_King said:
Hmm. Since the disbelievers will most keenly feel God's Wrath, it seems to me that God's Statement that His Mercy will prevail over His Wrath might also extend to the disbelievers eventually.
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God's wrath is the severe when it comes to it's proper place, there won't even be it getting less (the punishment) but only more per Quran, he will only increase the disbelievers in pain per Quran, so definitely no end for it.
 
The_Fisher_King

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Link said:
God's wrath is the severe when it comes to it's proper place, there won't even be it getting less (the punishment) but only more per Quran, he will only increase the disbelievers in pain per Quran, so definitely no end for it.
Click to expand...

Whilst I fear God's Wrath, which is indeed Severe, I still believe that His Mercy is Greater than His Wrath and will prevail in the end.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The_Fisher_King said:
Whilst I fear God's Wrath, which is indeed Severe, I still believe that His Mercy is Greater than His Wrath and will prevail in the end.
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His Mercy is greater then his wrath, but it won't save the disbelievers from his wrath, that would be it gone to extreme.
 
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