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The cosmological argument revisted.

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
No. God and your conception of God should not enter this picture before you address the problem by itself. In order to address the problem you have to define your epistemology. You have now made a little bit of your epistemology open. But I am definitely not going to engage in that yet.

Anyway, I like the fact that you engage with philosophy. May I ask you to explain the "grand theory of relativity" that you mentioned above?

The Kalam cosmological argument does not negate temporal finitism by the way.

A second interest of mine is your statement "nothing caused the Big Bang". As a positive statement unlike Bede Rundles statement (which honestly I have not seen before) that you quoted which only ends with what best he can say, which the universe is finite, which the Kalam Cosmological Argument agrees with 100% as a philosophical argument. Thus, can you provide your philosophical reasoning for your positive statement "nothing caused the Big Bang"?
Apologies, don't know why I wrote "grand" when I meant "general." I am referring to the General Theory of Relativity.

In relativity, an event takes place within a space-time context, but the BB has no space-time context, there being neither time nor space prior to it in which it could occur. Thus, it cannot be considered a physical event occurring at a moment of time. The BB singularity is technically a non-event and t=0t=0 is not a time of its occurence, so the singularity cannot be be the effect of any cause.

You will note, I hope, that I did not say that "nothing caused the Big Bang," but rather, "nothing in our universe of space and time caused the Big Bang."
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Apologies, don't know why I wrote "grand" when I meant "general." I am referring to the General Theory of Relativity.

Oh that's fine.

In relativity, an event takes place within a space-time context, but the BB has no space-time context, there being neither time nor space prior to it in which it could occur.

Thats exactly what the Kalam Cosmological Argument argues.

You will note, I hope, that I did not say that "nothing caused the Big Bang," but rather, "nothing in our universe of space and time caused the Big Bang."

I didnt mean to misrepresent you. So I stand corrected.

You have just agreed with the Kalam Cosmological Argument by the way. Maybe not agreed, but at least aligned with one part of its argument.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Oh that's fine.



Thats exactly what the Kalam Cosmological Argument argues.



I didnt mean to misrepresent you. So I stand corrected.

You have just agreed with the Kalam Cosmological Argument by the way. Maybe not agreed, but at least aligned with one part of its argument.
Then perhaps it's time for you to articulate your version of the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Just to establish a baseline for our dialogue.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Then perhaps it's time for you to articulate your version of the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Just to establish a baseline for our dialogue.

The argument is very clear from Gazzali and Ibn Sina that the necessary principle applies to all occurrences. And referring to the raqtan or inferred as the immediate occurrence at the Big Bang was cloven asunder was also an occurrence and that's Gazzali kithab allkthisadh. So the argument is that every occurrence has a cause. If one is to go with the Big Bang theory, time was born with the Big Bang thus with out an infinite regression and a Big Bang the argument does not state that there was a time prior to it. The aalam is described as everything that exists. Of course Gazzali takes it to "The God" where he says Aalam is everything that exists "Other than God" and his argument was cosmological with an ontology in mind. Thus, the concept does not go against any established cosmology and you actually presented them.

The ultimate point is that the possibility of an infinite regression is an impossibility in the classical Kalam cosmological argument. With the Big Bang theory, the same thing is inferred upon it that if the Big Bang is true, there was a necessary causation which means there was a necessary being. Forget about this being being God. Thats a whole different topic, and it would depend on your own epistemology.

You quoted Rundle. I dont know the quote you provided which I would like to know where from. Nevertheless, Rundle argues philosophically that questioning the question of the Big Bang and the pre Big Bang stage if there was ever one was a nothing is valid. BUT, what you must acknowledge is that the question is asked despite it being a logical impossibility. Even an absurdity. The argument is that even "if" the question is valid. Rundle is a fantastic philosopher and well respected so there is no question about his sophistry, but you would note that he immediately starts talking about God, theology, and the issues with both of them which means his epistemology is based on it. The Kalam Cosmological Argument does not really go there unless you refer to someone who uses it to justify a God according to his personal theology. This distinction has to be made to understand and discuss this argument. Vis a vis, rather than refuting God, one must refute the Cosmological argument which is fundamentally going back to a necessary being which can only be inferred through other arguments, is God.

I hope you understand.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Simply nonsense and based on an outdated notion of time (#107) and the second option is not logically absurd anyway in terms of the universe being infinite in the past direction.

There are, of course, plentiful other speculative ideas if you want them:-

Before the Big Bang 1 - Loop Quantum Cosmology Explained
Before the big bang 2 - Conformal Cyclic Cosmology explained (part 7 is an update of this)
Before the Big Bang 3: String Theory Cosmology (unfortunately there's no sound for about the first minute)
Before the Big Bang 4 : Eternal Inflation & The Multiverse
Before the Big Bang 5: The No Boundary Proposal
Before the Big Bang 6: Can the Universe Create Itself?
Before the Big Bang 7: An Eternal Cyclic Universe, CCC revisited & Twistor Theory
Before the Big Bang 8: Varying Speed Of Light Cosmology (VSL)
Before the Big Bang 9: A Multiverse from "Nothing"
Before the Big Bang 1O : Black Hole Genesis

[Edited for typo and broken link.]
Interestingly, none of these models avoid an absolute beginning at some point in the finite past…………all they do is push the beginning a few years back in to the past…………………..select your favorite one and I´LL explain why the model fails to be beginning less.


and the second option is not logically absurd anyway in terms of the universe being infinite
Yes it is, but so what? an infinite universe doesn’t remove the necessity of a “first /prime cause” anyway
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Actually there are many alternatives. I know more than 30, none of them say god did it and only a couple say the universe came from nothing. The thing is that each and every hypothesis must have some evidence and/or be mathematically sound
Ok but all of those 30 alternatives fall in one of the following categories

1 the universe has always existed

2 the universe had a cause

3 the universe came from nothing (without a cause)

I suggest that 2 is the most plausible, if you disagree then select your favorite option and explain why is that option better than “2”
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The fact that it appears as if the universe began to exist in its current form at the onset of the big bang says nothing about what the universe was prior to the big bang or whether or not it had a cause. You're making an unfounded assumption, just like you did with your couch and ball analogy. You assumed that the ball HAD to have been the cause of the depression, when it's just as likely that the couch always contained a natural depression that the ball fit into. You're assuming without any evidence that the universe hasn't always existed in one form or another, just so that you have a reason to insert your proposed god entity. It's an unnecessary step with the soul purpose of trying to justify an otherwise unsupportable claim for a creator being.


It about finding the best /most plausible explanation.

In order to stables that the universe is eternal you most assume

1 that there was something before the big bang

2 and that this something has always existed.

So unless you can show some evidence for both 1 and 2, I can dismiss them as random and baseless assumptions.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Interestingly, none of these models avoid an absolute beginning at some point in the finite past…………all they do is push the beginning a few years back in to the past…………………..select your favorite one and I´LL explain why the model fails to be beginning less.
The Conformal Cyclic Universe doesn't need a beginning.

And you have a principal problem. You assume linear time. If time is curved then A can cause B, B causes C and C causes A. No beginning, no end.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I agree.
Thus why your "GodDidIt" is a fail.
Ok and my suggestion is that the claim “the universe had a cause”, this is a better alternative than “the universe has always existed” and “the universe came from nothing

Any disagreement from your part?.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
The Conformal Cyclic Universe doesn't need a beginning.

And you have a principal problem. You assume linear time. If time is curved then A can cause B, B causes C and C causes A. No beginning, no end.

Cyclic universes can’t be eternal in to the past.


We discuss three candidate scenarios which seem to allow the possibility that the universe could have existed forever with no initial singularity: eternal infation, cyclic evolution, and the emergent universe. The first two of these scenarios are geodesically incomplete to the past, and thus cannot describe a universe without a beginning
...............source
Did the universe have a beginning?


And you have a principal problem. You assume linear time. If time is curved then A can cause B, B causes C and C causes A. No beginning, no end

Even if that mess is true, there would still have to be a prime cause / and uncaused cause / a first mover etc................the only diference is that we woudl have to invent new words in our vocabulary to describe stuff without unisign words like "before" "after" "prior" etc.

Side note
that if all that mess is true, then time would be subjective, claiming that the universe is 6,000 years old would be as bad (or as good) as claiming that the universe is 13.7B years old…………so at the end of the day YEC would not be wrong
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Ok but all of those 30 alternatives fall in one of the following categories

1 the universe has always existed

2 the universe had a cause

3 the universe came from nothing (without a cause)

I suggest that 2 is the most plausible, if you disagree then select your favorite option and explain why is that option better than “2”

Suggest whatever you want, its all guess. Assuming you guess right

Perhaps the cause is as professor Laura Mersini-Houghton hypothesises, that this universe budded off an earlier existing universe. And there is 3 pieces of evidence that suggest she is correct.

That of course means a multiverse exists, not quite what you want but a scenario that more and more cosmologists are considering.

Or another hypothesis that makes sense is colliding quantum membranes are several of the other string/m theory ideas.
 
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