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Christians! Do you despise Abominations? There's only one left to hate....which?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Sorry, but that's untrue.


Is that it?
John repeated those stories, he just didn't know what the disciple John had done.
Strange.


Is that it?
What a pitiful list.
John even stretched Mark's 11-12 month campaign our to three years ... So much fiddling.

And he turned a scheming priesthood in to THE JEWS. Wicked, imo.


That's good to read.
I don't expect you to, either.
This is the totality of your supportive documentation?

I’ll tell the disciple/apostle John that he should have talked to you before he wrote.

I favor this position:


Point #1: The testimony of the disciples of the Apostles and the generations of disciples to follow them cannot be ignored. The earliest mention suggesting John as the writer of the fourth Gospel is found in St. Justin Martyr's First Apology (61.4). St. Justin was martyred circa 155AD. In this work he alludes to John 3:3-5 and speaks of the Gospels as including "memoirs of the Apostles", in the plural. This would have to be a reference to Matthew and John since Mark and Luke were not Apostles in the narrowest use of the word as applied to the original 12 (eleven after Judas' death), but who also came to be called "apostles" as this Greek word, which means "emissaries" was later applied to all those who held positions of leadership within the Church. Justin Martyr's testimony is very important because Ephesus was his home church and he would have been very familiar with anything his great Apostle-bishop had written and the traditions associated with John's writings.

Point #2: Probably the most important second century testimony concerning the authorship of the fourth Gospel comes from St. Irenaeus Bishop of Lyon (b. 140AD, m. 202AD). Irenaeus was the disciple of St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna who was a disciple of John the Apostle. Irenaeus, in his work Against Heresies, briefly describes the composition of and authorship of the four Gospels and records that after the first three were written "John, the disciple of our Lord, who also had leaned upon his breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia." (Against Heresies 3.1.1). Later in the same work St. Irenaeus quotes verses from the fourth Gospel and attributes the words to "John, the disciple of the Lord."

Point #3: During Irenaeus' lifetime the Church was working to discern which writings should become the New Testament Canon. The oldest list that has survived is known as the Muratorian Fragment, named for the scholar of discovered it, I.A. Muratori who published the manuscript in 1740. Authorship of this document has been variously attributed to Caius of Rome, Hegesippus (first Church historian), Clement of Alexandria, Bishop Melito of Sardes, Bishop Polycrates of Ephesus, and possible Bishop Hippolytus of Rome, who like Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John. The document contains an account of the writing of the fourth Gospel: "The fourth Gospel is by John, one of the disciples. When his fellow disciples and bishops were urging him, he said, 'Fast with me for three days beginning today, and whatever will have been revealed to us, let us recount it with each other.' On that very night it was revealed to the Apostle Andrew that all the things they had recalled to mind, John should write them all in his own name. And therefore while various points are taught in the different books of the Gospels, there is not difference to the faith of believers; for in all of them all things are spoken under the one guiding Spirit, ..."(Faith of the Early Fathers, vol. I, page 107).
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Do you do admit that Jesus held up socialist values?
I wouldn’t use today’s term of socialism since there are both socialist and capitalist principle in what he taught

He held “love your neighbor “ as a principle as well as “personal responsibility”
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So you don't have any negative opinions about Christian Spiritualists, healers and clairvoyants?
Excellent.
When you judge a seer statements, as I said, the judgement is not on the person - it’s on the statement they declared

God is the judge of people.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
This is the totality of your supportive documentation?

I’ll tell the disciple/apostle John that he should have talked to you before he wrote.

I favor this position:


Point #1: The testimony of the disciples of the Apostles and the generations of disciples to follow them cannot be ignored. The earliest mention suggesting John as the writer of the fourth Gospel is found in St. Justin Martyr's First Apology (61.4). St. Justin was martyred circa 155AD. In this work he alludes to John 3:3-5 and speaks of the Gospels as including "memoirs of the Apostles", in the plural. This would have to be a reference to Matthew and John since Mark and Luke were not Apostles in the narrowest use of the word as applied to the original 12 (eleven after Judas' death), but who also came to be called "apostles" as this Greek word, which means "emissaries" was later applied to all those who held positions of leadership within the Church. Justin Martyr's testimony is very important because Ephesus was his home church and he would have been very familiar with anything his great Apostle-bishop had written and the traditions associated with John's writings.

Point #2: Probably the most important second century testimony concerning the authorship of the fourth Gospel comes from St. Irenaeus Bishop of Lyon (b. 140AD, m. 202AD). Irenaeus was the disciple of St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna who was a disciple of John the Apostle. Irenaeus, in his work Against Heresies, briefly describes the composition of and authorship of the four Gospels and records that after the first three were written "John, the disciple of our Lord, who also had leaned upon his breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia." (Against Heresies 3.1.1). Later in the same work St. Irenaeus quotes verses from the fourth Gospel and attributes the words to "John, the disciple of the Lord."

Point #3: During Irenaeus' lifetime the Church was working to discern which writings should become the New Testament Canon. The oldest list that has survived is known as the Muratorian Fragment, named for the scholar of discovered it, I.A. Muratori who published the manuscript in 1740. Authorship of this document has been variously attributed to Caius of Rome, Hegesippus (first Church historian), Clement of Alexandria, Bishop Melito of Sardes, Bishop Polycrates of Ephesus, and possible Bishop Hippolytus of Rome, who like Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John. The document contains an account of the writing of the fourth Gospel: "The fourth Gospel is by John, one of the disciples. When his fellow disciples and bishops were urging him, he said, 'Fast with me for three days beginning today, and whatever will have been revealed to us, let us recount it with each other.' On that very night it was revealed to the Apostle Andrew that all the things they had recalled to mind, John should write them all in his own name. And therefore while various points are taught in the different books of the Gospels, there is not difference to the faith of believers; for in all of them all things are spoken under the one guiding Spirit, ..."(Faith of the Early Fathers, vol. I, page 107).
None of those people were there, back in circa 28-30CE.
And no, the totality of my supportive documentation is very large and all to be found on the gospel themselves, not from second and third hand sources
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I wouldn’t use today’s term of socialism since there are both socialist and capitalist principle in what he taught

He held “love your neighbor “ as a principle as well as “personal responsibility”
He upheld the laws of Moses, which are all about 'whole community', and social values.

What did Jesus do or say to support capitalism?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
When you judge a seer statements, as I said, the judgement is not on the person - it’s on the statement they declared

God is the judge of people.
Ken, God is not our judge here because he has not shown any such evidence of being here.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The story started in Gen 3 when the Messiah was declared - it was instituted at the death of Jesus
Ah.... A Christian belief.
I see the story starting with the Baptist, stopping people from trekking to the Temple with their hard earned money and offering them cleansing and redemption for nothing. Of course they flocked to him, just as people would flock to keep their savings today.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
None of those people were there, back in circa 28-30CE.
And no, the totality of my supportive documentation is very large and all to be found on the gospel themselves, not from second and third hand sources
and, of course, you weren't there either :) but I believe they would know more of who was there in the previous generation. I know who my great grandmother was/is than someone deciding 2,000 years later.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
He upheld the laws of Moses, which are all about 'whole community', and social values.

What did Jesus do or say to support capitalism?

Yes. It was about community and social values but that isn't today's socialism.

Capitalist principles

1) Parable of the talents
2) The story of Zaccheaus
3) Woman who gave two copper coins

and more

Community principles.

1) The parable of the Good Samaritan
2) Final judgment (you fed me, you clothe me)
3) The Story of Zaccheaus

and more.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ah.... A Christian belief.
I see the story starting with the Baptist, stopping people from trekking to the Temple with their hard earned money and offering them cleansing and redemption for nothing. Of course they flocked to him, just as people would flock to keep their savings today.
If you choose the story starting with the Baptist, fine. We can say the he started the story there

However, and regardless, the New will and Testament wasn't instituted until the death of the testator. :)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
and, of course, you weren't there either :) but I believe they would know more of who was there in the previous generation. I know who my great grandmother was/is than someone deciding 2,000 years later.
The only depositions are the gospels, and we know that Matthew and Luke copied Mark and other tracts, and that John was not there, just by reading his statement.
That leave Mark,'s account who was there on occasions such as the arrest.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yes. It was about community and social values but that isn't today's socialism.

Capitalist principles

1) Parable of the talents
2) The story of Zaccheaus
3) Woman who gave two copper coins

and more

Community principles.

1) The parable of the Good Samaritan
2) Final judgment (you fed me, you clothe me)
3) The Story of Zaccheaus

and more.
But the parable of the talents was metaphor, and not about coinage and mammon.

To try and put one foot in to Christianity and another in to mammon is just crank.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
If you choose the story starting with the Baptist, fine. We can say the he started the story there

However, and regardless, the New will and Testament wasn't instituted until the death of the testator. :)
I don't think Jesus died.
The gospels offer three different outcomes.
Look, I can acknowledge your faith, anybody's faith, but I don't acknowledge any kind of certitude about Christianity.
I can show how Jesus may we have lived. Actually that is a thread..... that's a thought.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The only depositions are the gospels, and we know that Matthew and Luke copied Mark and other tracts, and that John was not there, just by reading his statement.
That leave Mark,'s account who was there on occasions such as the arrest.
Ok. I really can't subscribe to that position. I see no reason for John to write..... again.... what was already written. I see John has saying, "After considering all that we learned by being with Jesus, after understanding the reality of all that was said in the TaNaKh, after the revelations that we all have received over the decades, I would like to share the truth"... and then wrote.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But the parable of the talents was metaphor, and not about coinage and mammon.

To try and put one foot in to Christianity and another in to mammon is just crank.

I gave you three. And if a metaphor, it is still applicable about money, especially since talents is 3000 shekels a piece.

We are stewards.

There is just too much in scripture to say that money is evil. It is the LOVE of money that births evil acts. A car is not evil but if you love your car more than your family, it births evil.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I don't think Jesus died.
The gospels offer three different outcomes.
Look, I can acknowledge your faith, anybody's faith, but I don't acknowledge any kind of certitude about Christianity.
I can show how Jesus may we have lived. Actually that is a thread..... that's a thought.

And yet it was birthed on the fact that he died and resurrected. I choose to believe that as did the people who lived in his time. Certainly Paul said, (paraphrased) - "if he didn't die and resurrect then all my preaching is in vain". - Since Paul was a contemporary of that time, I see it as a validation.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ok. I really can't subscribe to that position. I see no reason for John to write..... again.... what was already written. I see John has saying, "After considering all that we learned by being with Jesus, after understanding the reality of all that was said in the TaNaKh, after the revelations that we all have received over the decades, I would like to share the truth"... and then wrote.
You accuse me of making up words and look at that.
Question to witness: How come you failed to make mention of the most exciting and special moments in your time with Jesus?
John: Why would I? Other people wrote about me.

Jury: *snickers*

John was not there. His gospel shows that. I'm amazed that he didn't mention his Mum at the execution.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I gave you three. And if a metaphor, it is still applicable about money, especially since talents is 3000 shekels a piece.

We are stewards.

There is just too much in scripture to say that money is evil. It is the LOVE of money that births evil acts. A car is not evil but if you love your car more than your family, it births evil.
To spin Capitalism out of Jesus and his real values is as hypocritical as the Temple priesthood had been in his time.
One Christian once told me that because Jesus had owned his own clothes so this was clear evidence that personal possessions were good ... He was a millionaire. !!!

Such spin.
 
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