Is according to Jews everything God's will?

dybmh said:

No. Not even close. You're forgetting about the end of the verse in Genesis. The future Jewish King will gather the people. Jesus is a divisive figure, not a unifier.

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The Bible calls Israel the apple of God's eye...

"For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye." —Zechariah 2:8

God chose Abraham because He knew Abraham would raise up his children to obey God (Genesis 18:19). God called Israel the Apple of His Eye because of all that He planned to do, and has done, through the nation (Romans 9:4). However, God warned what He would do if the Jews rebelled. Several hundred years before the Jews were carried off in judgment by the Assyrians (722 BC) and by the Babylonians (586 BC), God had warned what would happen if they rebelled against God's Commandments...

Deuteronomy 28:32-37,“Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand. The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.”

Wow, that's horrifying! Yet, God later promised in Jeremiah to one day regather Israel...

Jeremiah 31:10, “Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.”

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rosends said:

If legal precedent exists, then it is part of the law. When there is none, as in this case, the thing being discussed is not part of the law.

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Skywalker said:

Israel will be regathered during the second advent of Jesus. Israel Regathered Only When Jesus Christ Returns

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rosends said:

1. I never said anything about John
2. Mention of phone calls has nothing to do with law

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Skywalker said:

Phone calls shows that first cousins are friendly in ways that unrelated people of the opposite sex aren't.

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Rival said:

Huh? Opposite sex folks can be friendly with each other with nothing else going on.

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Skywalker said:

Friends of the opposite gender don't mingle for hours.

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dybmh said:

Therefore:

Jesus does NOT perfectly fit the prophecy in Genesis.

Not even close. At best it's 50% which is a fail in most academic institutions.

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Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah?

Question: "Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah?"

Answer: The Old Testament does prophesy the second coming of Christ, also referred to as the second advent of the Messiah. Some Old Testament prophecies concern the first advent, when Christ was born as a human being. Others concern the second advent, which is the ultimate triumph of this Messiah. It’s important to remember that prophecy does not describe the future in the same detail as history describes the past. So, while the prophecies of the Old Testament certainly describe both the first and second advents, most early interpretations of these prophecies melded them into a single event. Particularly during the years leading up to Jesus’ birth, it was assumed Messiah would be a political/military figure with an immediate worldly kingdom (Luke 19:11). In the light of Jesus’ ministry, it is possible to understand the true purpose of Christ and the real nature of His kingdom.

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies. So the clues are there.

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Rival said:

They do.

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Skywalker said:

Friendship implies two people being on the same level. People of the opposite gender are on the same level for friendship, but not at a certain level.

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Ehav4Ever said:

WHAT? Did you just write what I think you wrote? Did anyone else notice this statement made by Skywalker? The force is definately not with you on this one.

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As the Babylonian Talmud reads (Sanhedrin 98), “The Messiah, what is his name? The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, ‘surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted.” The Babylonian Talmud is authoritative Jewish tradition. Who is the suffering servant? Israel or Jesus? According to orthodox Jewish tradition prior to the coming of Christ, it was the Christ.

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Rival said:

This doesn't make much sense. Boys and girls are clearly not the same either psychologically or functionally, but they can definitely be friends and on the same 'level'.

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Skywalker said:

The Babylonian Talmud mentions that people believed that the Messiah was the suffering servant, before Christ. Who Is The Suffering Servant? Israel Or Jesus?

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Harel13 said:

Many points to be made here:
a. Jesus did not have leprosy.

b. In the same passage in Sanhedrin, multiple names are given for the Mashiach. None of them are "Jesus" or anything remotely similar. They are: Yinon, Menachem ben Chizkiyah, Shiloh and/or Chaninah.

c. At the end of the list, the sages give him the title "חיוורא דבי רבי". It has been pointed out that this חיוורא of the house of Rebbe was a real person. In the Jerusalem Talmud Chagigah 2:1, it says: "תלמיד וותיק היה לו לרבי ודרש פרק אחד במעשה המרכבה ולא הסכימה דעתו של רבי ולקה בשחין". Now I'll explain. "חיוורא דבי רבי" means "the stricken of the house of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince". The Yerushalmi relates who this person was: He was a student of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince who studied advanced mystical teachings improperly, and for this was struck with a form of boils (as in "the plague of boils"). Yes, one could call this leprosy, if one so chooses. Some think that this addition by the sages was a joke, after a chain of guesses of what the Mashiach's name is. This is open to discussion. But in any case, "leper scholar" is not the full story. It's missionary deceit and twisting of the Talmud. It's quite a pathetic way to attempt to prove one's religion is true. But hey, Paul did it, right?

d. As we've explained, the real term is "the stricken/afflicted/leper of the house of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince". This is not Jesus at all: 1. Jesus was born long before Rabbi Yehudah. 2. Rabbi Yehudah the Prince, while a descendant of David, this was from one of his female ancestors. From his father's side, he was of the tribe of Benjamin, and as we all know, Christians claim Jesus was a "direct" descendant of David. 3. Jesus had no known connection to the house of the prince of his time. 4. Jesus was not stricken by any sort of sickness (except, possibly, a mental one).

e. Most importantly, with regards to your claim, going back to the teaching of the sages, calling the Mashiach "the stricken of the house of Rabbi Yehudah the Prince", and basing it off of the verse in Isaiah 53, as I already pointed out in post #533:

Harel13 said:

The rabbis are actually employing here a Talmudic technique called an "Asmachta" (אסמכתא) which means using certain verses as hints towards certain ideas, but never to suggest that that is the sole or even main interpretation of the verse and certainly not of the surrounding verses.

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Yes, the sages purposely took the verse out of context. I suppose it's exceedingly ironic that missionaries then proceeded to take their words out of context. Funny how that happens sometimes.

f. What are your thought about the previous portion of the Talmudic text, in which Rabbi Hillel (not the same as Hillel the Elder) says: "Rabbi Hillel, who says: There is no Messiah coming for the Jewish people, as they already ate from him, as all the prophecies relating to the Messiah were already fulfilled during the days of Hezekiah"?

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Skywalker said:

There's a certain level of friendship that can only exist between people of the same gender. It's would be weird if a married person texted someone else of the opposite gender for hours.

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Harel13 said:

Dude, I just explained this to you!

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Rival said:

You never mentioned marriage. Of course that makes it different.

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Ehav4Ever said:

You did, but did you notice that he claimed that Babylonian Talmud predated Jesus? So, that means that Skywalker is saying that Jesus lived after 500 CE.

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Skywalker said:

Legal precedent is consistent with step family and cousins being close relatives.

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Skywalker said:

You said that by Jewish law first cousins aren't close family.

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Skywalker said:

Phone calls shows that first cousins are friendly in ways that unrelated people of the opposite sex aren't.

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Harel13 said:

I thought he meant that the Talmud, though written after Jesus, said that before Jesus, people believed in a messianic suffering servant.

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