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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE???
In Mary Boyce's book she has words spoken by Zoraster that are from the 6th century BC. Among those words are predictions of a virgin born world savior.

Christianity did not come until over 600 years after these Persian writings. I have already gave you the scholar who is the most educated in this religion and it's known in scholarship that the Persians influenced Christianity in ways already mentioned. I do not care if some apologetics writing pastor writes an article from Google?

This is on pg 29 of Boyce's book:

"Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[1"

You can check her qualifications here:
Mary Boyce - Wikipedia
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Zoroastrianism borrowed from Hinduism. There is evidence that Zoroastrianism is borrowed from other faiths. Are the ideas of Jesus and Christianity borrowed from Mithra and Zoroastrianism? | GotQuestions.org

establishing when Zarathustra lived is only the first step. Next, we have to establish what he actually taught (as opposed to what modern Zoroastrianism claims he taught). The only source for Zarathustra’s teachings is the Avesta, and the oldest copies we have of the Avesta date from the 13th century AD. The late date for this collection of writings lends no support whatsoever to the idea that Christians borrowed from Zoroastrianism (the oldest copies of the Jewish Scriptures that we have today date centuries before Christ, and the oldest complete manuscripts of the Christian Scriptures we have date from the 4th century AD).

This looks to be another case of skeptics citing a pre-Christian religion, assuming that the post-Christian form of the religion (which we know about) has remained faithful to the pre-Christian form of the religion (which we know nothing about) and speculating that the similarities between the religion and Christianity are due to Christianity borrowing from the religion in question. It’s a philosophical argument without solid evidence to back it up. Have we any good reason not to suppose that it was Zoroastrianism which borrowed from Christianity and not vice versa? We know that Zoroastrianism borrowed freely from the polytheistic faiths of the region in which it became popular. Mithra, for example, was a Persian god who found a prominent role in Zoroastrianism. Mithra’s Hindu counterpart is the god Mitra.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
joelr said:
That is i ridiculous argument. Jesus said non-believers would suffer in eternal fire. It doesn't get harsher than this.
The first 3 commandments from this God are about how you can only worship him and you cannot even have an image of another God. Freedom of religion is out the door.
Stop posting apologetics and make a point yourself. Use the article to back up an idea but say what you mean. If you are just going to go "no you are wrong" with a link to a layman historian preacher or some other unqualified author it's pointless.
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There is a hell because God is love but He is also just. We can't stand in the presence of God with our sin. Sin separates God from his creation. When people sin they hurt themselves and they hurt God. God cannot just overlook our sin for the same reason a judge cannot overlook someone who committed a crime. That's why God died for our sins. Even the most fair judge has to punish someone who committed a crime. That's why God made a way for everyone to be saved. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Hell and Love

Jesus did not soften the truth about Hell and eternal punishment in an attempt to make His message more palatable to accommodate culture. Rather, Jesus warned about Hell more than all of the prophets and apostles combined.

Jesus did this and gave His life for the sins of the world, because He cares deeply for us and does not will that any would perish (Mathew 18:14). His heart truly does break for those who refuse to follow Him (Matthew 23:37-39). Jesus warned about Hell because He doesn’t want anyone to choose to go there. He warned about Hell because He knew well that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7) and wisdom (Psalm 111:10).

Not one soul will ‘inadvertently’ slip through the cracks and end up in Hell. We all deserve to be condemned (Romans 3:1-10, 23; 6:23) and we should all be going there. However, God is love (1 John 4:8, 16) and in His incredible mercy and grace He demonstrated His love for us in His incarnation (John 1:14) and in His substitutionary sacrifice on the cross for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). God demonstrated His own love to us, that while we were still sinners, He sent His Son to pay the penalty we deserve (Romans 5:6-10).

He reveals to us that He has no pleasure in the death of anyone, “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live” (Ezekiel 18:32). His heart is that all would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

Jesus enlightens the heart of everyone who comes into the world (John 1:9), and convicts the world of sin by His gracious Holy Spirit (John 16:8). He causes the grace that brings salvation to appear to all men (Titus 2:11). He supernaturally makes his covenant known to those who fear Him (Psalm 25:14), even as He did to Cornelius.

God taught Peter that He is not partial, but extends His grace, without partiality, to all those who truly fear Him (Acts 10:34-35). Thus, God made His saving covenant known to Cornelius, who responded to the initial light of God’s grace given to him (John 1:9). Jesus taught that those who desire to do the will of God would come to know who He is (John 7:17). Those who respond to the gracious light God has given to them are given by the Father to the Son (John 17:6).
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Not a valid source, try again.
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Zoroastrianism is different from Christianity because it's not really monotheistic. Christianity didn't get the idea of monotheism from Zoroastrianism. Monotheism exists because we are born with the knowledge that there is one God who created everything and gave us a conscience.

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

Zoroastrianism or Mazdayasna is one of the world's oldest continuously practiced religions. It is a multi-faceted faith centered on a dualistic cosmology of good and evil and an eschatology predicting the ultimate conquest of evil with theological elements of henotheism, monotheism/monism, and polytheism.
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Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Zoroastrianism is different from Christianity because it's not really monotheistic. Christianity didn't get the idea of monotheism from Zoroastrianism. Monotheism exists because we are born with the knowledge that there is one God who created everything and gave us a conscience.

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia
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Again, so what? No one claimed that they were the same. They only pointed out how it is likely that parts of the Jesus story were borrowed from other sources.

You seem to be having a hard time understanding this concept. Once again no one is claiming a 100% copy. Only certain parts of various stories.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Again, so what? No one claimed that they were the same. They only pointed out how it is likely that parts of the Jesus story were borrowed from other sources.

You seem to be having a hard time understanding this concept. Once again no one is claiming a 100% copy. Only certain parts of various stories.
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How could the Bible be copied form any part of the Avesta if the Avesta is from the 13th century AD?
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
It isn't. Logical fail on your part.

The oldest printed Bible is from 1455. Does that mean that the Avesta is older?
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The Bible existed before its printed forms. Did God Only Inspire the Original Autographs of the Bible?

Did God Only Inspire the Original Autographs of the Bible?

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." —Psalm 12:6-7

No! We do have God's inspired and preserved Word today—the King James Bible. The Bible was completed with the Book of Revelation in A.D. 96. The first bound Book of the Scriptures (called a codex) was produced on parchments (animal skins) in the 2nd century. The Bible was a BINDING COLLECTION OF COPIES OF PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN AUTOGRAPHS. Thus, it is clear that a copy can be inspired, for that was all the early church elders had to work with.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
night912 said:
According to some early Christian beliefs, neither was Jesus.



So are you saying that Jesus is not a descendant of a god and a woman?
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Jesus is the son of God incarnated, (referring to the sonship of the Trinity), not the son of a deity and a human woman. Dionysus is different.

Jesus was God who became man. Jesus was the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, who appeared to Joseph before he was born.
 
N

night912

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
Jesus is the son of God incarnated, (referring to the sonship of the Trinity), not the son of a deity and a human woman. Dionysus is different.

Jesus was God who became man. Jesus was the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, who appeared to Joseph before he was born.
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So, basically you're saying that Jesus did not fulfilled one of the most, if not the most important, prophecy, being a descendant of David.
 
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